Orthodox attempting to address pre-marital sex

The problem is that the Halacha has not been amended to catch up with recent social trends of the last 20 or 30 years. 100 years ago in the Middle East, and I guess in Eastern Europe, guys used to get married at 20 years old and younger, and women as young as 14. So at that point “saving yourself for your true love” wasn’t that hard. Even 35 years ago or so, even in North America, men marrying at 25 and women at 20 was quite normal. Again, not that difficult to control one’s natural urges for and in the hope of future wedded bliss. Now we’re at the stage where many men may not marry until 35 and women until 30, since they can’t usually provide for themselves or a family until then. And the pill has decoupled sex from pregnancy, and the society has become very tolerant of pre-marital sex, so that’s why everyone has a problem, even the Orthodox.
I propose a radical solution- when it looks like a guy and a girl are behaving like they are contemplating having sex (it’s not that hard to tell, if their friends and family are observant), even if they’re 16 or so, encourage them to get make a formal public commitment to each other, with the clear understanding, explicitly stated that they shall use birth control and protection. Even have a formal service in the synagogue, but this would clearly be understood is not expected to be a lifelong commitment, but the guy and girl would be required to be faithful to each other, for the mutually agreed duration. This would teach a habit of loyalty. If at some point the partners decided to make a marriage commitment, then that would be fine too. One could consider this as a pre-marriage or quasi-marriage or betrothal. I know this is not an ideal solution, but what we have right now in most societies is total anarchy as far as relationships are concerned.

Look, for most non-Haredi Jews careers/status is the #1 rasion d’etre of why to wake up in the AM (I think this is very troubling, but c’est la vie). Add to this the high percentage of divorces, the stress of dual income families and children, blah, blah…and is it any wonder that Modern Ortho Jews aren’t getting married at 21?

However, the rabbis are telling stinky lies. And they know it. It’s not that YU undergrads are playing with each other’s genitals between class, it’s that NCSY teens are doing this. So unless Modern Ortho Judaism finds a way to marry off their teens at 14, this problem/dilemma is here to stay (and the Haredim know this, and that’s why they lump Modern Ortho Judaism into the “Liberal Jewsh Stew”.)

I hope you’re joking Michael.

But I do think that every girl should have the choice to go to the mikvah or not. I mean, really!

“Whoa, that’s actually a really good idea.”

For Christians maybe, not for us. We’re talking the laws of Onan here people…spilling seed. And for a 15 year old, this can occur via a slight breeze. So turn to Belz, Satmar, Skver, and Munkatch for the only tried and tested method for keeping teens out of each other’s pants (at least with the opposite sex…DOH).

yea, the article was pretty interesting and i agree it is an issue that should be discussed. In response to Jewlicious’ post i would say several things.
Sexuality is definately natural and can be beautiful but i think that the standard religious response would be something like this (and of couse im not by any mean an authority) . . . that like mnay things that are natural or instinctive sex needs to be controlled in such a way that it is not just a response and is different from just anything any animal would do. One way we do this is by treating it as one of the holiest things that we can do with another person. So, to allow premarital sex would be to make it significantly more accesible. Its known that the things that we do often are trivialized and so the way we prevent this is by regulating it in a sort of way.
As for why not going to the “next step” and call these people nuns we should think, “b/c we dont want them to not have sex or to not be able to partake in such a holy act but rather we want them to partake in it in a way that will ultimately be worth the wait and/or sanctify it.” Something like that.

As for Dave’s idea, i hardly think that it would ever work out. I mean come on, do you actually think that anyone would be willing to do that let alone that halakhic authority would ok it.

But yo, definately an interesting topic. what do other think?

“As for Dave’s idea, i hardly think that it would ever work out. ”

Oh it would…it would. It would serve as an aphrodiasaic to encourage teens to get all deviant and shit. Ever tell a typical 15 year old not to do something (with no really, REALLY good reason)? It’s like dangling a bag of crack vials in front of an addict and saying: “Please don’t”.

“nd doesn’t wait until they’re 32 years old with no strong prospects of marriage, they’re like animals?”

No, but they’re breaking the laws of Onan (punishable by death I believe). And this is what concerns the rabbis. Remember, for Modern Orthodox Jews to remain Orthodox, they must take this seriously. Hell, it’s those bloody NCSY conventions that contribute to much of this “speed spillin’”

Would this be the right time to encourage people to attend the Jewlicious conference?

That is a radical solution, and I think it shows really creative, innovative thinking. But I’ve got mixed feelings on it.

I think that Judaism does need to acknowledge that things now are not the same as what was. That’s (in a different way) what I understood the takkanah of Rabbenu Gershom was about, saying yes, there was polygamy in the past, but it’s not right for us today. I think that kind of thinking is lacking in general in Orthodox circles, even modern ones. (Don’t even get me started on tefilah.)

Ultimately, while sex between consulting adults (not 16-year-olds in frum communities) is between two people (and one could argue, Omniscient Voyeur Guy), to create some sort of “Jew It Before You Do It” ritual to publicly commemorate or sanctify this kind of a personal, private act seems very untznius (immodest) to me. Why not just invite the shul to the deflowering? Sponsor a kiddush? Buy a plaque to commemorate the event?

That said, I’m not against ceremonies and sanctifications that involve halakhah, mikvah, even tefilah. But I think that any such event should be between the two parties doing the, um, partying. If I wanted my community in my bedroom, I’d live in the synagogue social hall. (Although, I do wonder what the rent’s like there.)

And I’m with Dina on the mikvah thing. That a single woman who’s sexually active should be receiving a “God Forbid” when she asks to visit the mikvah is appalling. And perhaps, if mikvah had been more of a part of Jewish education (say, as part of bat mitzvah preparations), it might be viewed with less contempt now by women who find it impossible to accept an impurity that restricts us from receiving any comforting touch from the significant others we have waited so long to find.

Perhaps somebody needs to sponsor mikvahs that are open to unmarried women?

By the way, the idea of this special ceremony at 16 is a great way to cost Jewish parents even more money to raise their children and would be a great boon to caterers, florists, cheesy bands, jewellers and bakers (“we make the best “Age of Consent” cakes in town! Show your beloved how much you love her…before you love her!”)

Y’know, the mikvah thing’s so annoying! I don’t have a single friend who is or was always shomer/shomeret (and I’m Orthodox) and even if you’re not actually having sex–any form of anything needs a woman to have gone to the mikvah.

As a point of fact, I love all Jews and love Judaism. But I do not, in general, love movements. I’ve worked at the flagship institutions of two out of three major movements, and nothing seems to fit. I flirt with the term Conservadox, but that’s not really it either.

And I acknowledge that many of the sexual choices that people make today aren’t necessarily emotionally or physically healthy ones. I’m not saying we necessarily need embrace all that has changed about society, just that we understand when people make other choices.

Dave, I actually think your idea has some merit. It’s just that it would become the post bar mitzvah bar mitzvah celebration (“Hey, did Josh hook up with Lara, nudge nudge wink wink”). I think 16 is too young, but realistic.

Are there many Vancouver Jews who are single at 35?

“Note to self: Visit Vancouver.”

Seriously, I’m not sure the reason that men and women in their thirties and forties are single is because they’d rather be companionless. Sure, some of them are a little loosey goosey about commitment, or giving up their Warren Beatty bachelor lives for one woman. But others haven’t found the right person.

And an interesting note. Dina and I are the only two women who’ve weighed in on this thread thus far. And in the JPost article, of the ten talkback comments, only one is a woman, and her name doesn’t sound all that Jewish to me. Where are the women?

“But others haven’t found the right person.”

If you take all the single people, and all the divorced people, how many people do we have left that have “found the right person”. Very, very few. In other words, or in the words of Schnarch: “Nobody is ready for marriage, marriage makes you ready for marriage”.

A very Jewish concept, no? BTW, if I sound like I’m preaching it’s because I too worry about the very things that I’m critical of.

BTW Esther, read some of your site, you’re a talented writer.

Muffti should hold his tongue…but, honestly, maybe the solution is to give up hosts of silly ancient rules that are really dubiously justified? Go out, get laid, enjoy your life and stop worrying so much about whether or not God gives a shit about it? As I remember my torah, even Judah got his whistle wet with prostitutes and things turned out pretty well for him and his descendants.

And folks, that was Muffti with the angry secular angle, popularized by many luminaries from Ben-Gurion to Shulamit Aloni to every Israeli filmmaker who has ever lived. We now return you to your previously scheduled debate…

I didn’t say secular, I said angry secular. Aww, but I love the Muffti anyway, even if he is a heretic.

Michael, Muffti isn’t angry. Just constantly shocked. And he’s a fan of yours two, theological differences aside.

It reminds Muffti of the solution Church members had when confronted with evidence from telescopes that the universe was in fact not not made of crystalline spheres that revolved around the earth in conformity with their favourite theistically driven metaphysics. Their solution? Claim that there was irreperable dust and flaws on the lens of the telescopes. (When that didn’t work, they imprisoned Gallileo and implied they would torture him. He quite reasonably took the unheroic route of recanting). The point of the analogy? In both cases, out of date structures made people say ridiculous things rather than acknowledge that the structure was, for lack of a better phrase, completely and totally fucked.

Anyhow, Ben-Gurion strikes Muffti as pretty good company to keep. Was he angry? (Muffti isn’t sure htat BG would be quite as happy about the matter.)

GM can type fuck, and I’m still having problems posting things that don’t even allude to sex. What’s up with that?

Muffti not onlyfucking typed it, he put it in motherfucking bold. He has special powers. Perhaps if you prayed with a bit more kavanah the grand pubah y’all trust so much will help? Muffti hears he’s capable of miracles (sorry, TM, Muffti will stop with the cussin’)

Muffti indeed did. Chatting at McGill was tons of fun. And Slaves on Dope ruled.

By the way, (Muffti hates to use this forum for these sorts of things) but speaking of, ahem, sex and stuff, are you ever in touch with L_? Always wondered where she went.

Great banter on institutionalizing sin. Woo-hoo!

Excuse me, this guy founded an organization to fight haredization of the national religious community? Heaven forbid someone might change colours.

Oh well,
what most of you are suggesting here is that if the people can’t hold mitzvahs, try to create a compromise so that everyone can rationalize/justify the sin. Jeeez-louise… Do I deny that ortho Jews have premarital relations? No, but to actually condone it with mikvehs for single/unmarried girls? Sad.

Be reform, they make their own rules, just stop claiming to still be orthodox. Othodox is not hypocritical, only the people who claim to be and aren’t.

Actually, Josh, Muffti was advising not to be orthodox. He agrees that compromise means dissolution. So be it. Not all systems are designed to last and it had a good run.

“Not all systems are designed to last and it had a good run.”

Not sure what you’re refering to. And while I agree with you that secular/cultural Judaism as well as Reform/Conservative are in trouble, I know very few Modern Ortho Jews who intermarry and the Hassidic movements are flourishing.

I think the problem is that you guys are basically arguing about two different things, as is true in most great debates. Either you discuss whether or not premarital sex is a bad thing or you discuss whether religious values should hold in today’s society.

Oh my god. A puppy dies everytime Muffti masturbates? My teens must have been a virtual massacre for the young canines of the world. He promises never to do it again…

Patty-Cake,

The point is simple…Judaism has laws…New York has laws. One of our laws that are still followed by ORTHODOX Jews is the following:

Spilling seed upon the ground, or in any other manner unrelated to procreation,is a sin.

You may not agree with it. Hell, you may have more in common with GM. But in the end, if you care about Modern Orthodoxy, this breaking the laws of Onan is something that needs to be addressed.

Shtremiel! You’re being even ruder than Muffti! Stop takin’ his job!

While we’re at it, now that we can see your dirty, filthy posts, you said:

ow I’m not saying that davening and celibacy will free you from depression and anxiety. But here’s something I know for sure, the secular formula for living i.e. career, shopping and casual encounters, ain’t doing too many any good (go check out the stock prices of any anti-depressant/anxiety pharmaceutical company). Trust me. If you can’t see this, you’ve spent too much time within the halls of your Philosophy dept.

OK, Muffti really thinks that this ‘too much ivory tower so you don’t know shit’ charge is a little overused. Nonetheless, Muffti is pretty sure you are attributing a rather false dillema to him. Just as there isn’t one orthodox tradition, there is no ‘secular’ formula for living. When Muffti said go out and get laid, etc., he had no intention of also saying be a big crybaby, find the most shallow pursuits possible, swallow pharmaceuticals like they are going out of style and overwork yourself into an anxiety ridden, tired out shell of a person. Fortunately, secularism isn’t devoted to a dogma that can’t compromise and change. Muffti then thinks that those of us who agree with Josh but have no interest in being orthodox should be looking into what values make people happy, productive and feeling fulfilled in a secular world.

Muffti really feels for Onan. The guy does one early withdrawl and gets a sin named after him for life. Anyhow, Shtremiel, Muffti never understands what’s going on in Jewlicious these days: TM posts something about certain woes for religion. Josh claims that we must tighten up and less compromising and keep our standards. Muffti says that clearly something is messed up. And then you come back and say that Orthodox judaism is going great.

Is there something about this dialectic that doesn’t quite seem right?

Ok, point taken, my jewish history is not quite up to date. But enlighten me: what kind of structures are in place to ensure that jewish religion keeps up with the world today? Do you believe that orthodoxy means obeying rules that are outdated, or do you believe that eventually the rules will be updated and that in the meatime you should obey the rules as a sign of faith?

I mean seriously, is there anything more satisfying than night after night of anonymous sex with a nameless stream of willing bodies?

Um, maybe not. Then again, a few nights like this couldn’t hurt.

But why are you claiming all secular relationships are like this? None of mine were. I knew their names.

Sorry, ck. You’re right about the names.

But seriously, does no one here realize just how uncharitable they are being? Muffti never said avoid intimacy at all costs. Muffti never said you should try to get the hell out as fast as possible in the morning for every sexual encounter you have.

You people seriously need to be a bit more charitable. It’s like if Muffti said to someone ‘get a job’ and they said: ‘oh sure. Coz people who work are so happy. Shtremiel tells me they are all on anti-depressants and go to meetings about intimacy with any shrink that will talk to them. And then I’ll get overworked, underpaid and get carpell tunnel syndrom. And then I’ll not see my wife/girlfriend at all and lead an empty life as a drone or cog in a system until I get fired. Great advice, Muffti, you dick!’ One can see that the advice to get a job is not tantamount to advising someone to bring on everything they claim. Similarly, the advice to go get laid and enjoy yourself is not a command to go out and abandon all intimacy, love, hope and romance.

Now pardon me, Muffti must escape from what’s-her-name beside him quietly before she wakes up and makes him cook her breakfast

“Shtreimel, 1. how do married Orthodox Jews address the spilling of seed?”

Whoooooooooo….I knew this would happen. I’m not a mouth piece for Orthodox Judaism. Hell, I struggle with the very issues that many of you struggle with. But having worked for the Conservative Movement, and applying to JTS, I can say with full confidence that their approach to changing Halacha has landed them in the mess they are currently in.

All I’m saying is, look within before you start blaming tradition. In therapy, we call this projecting, and it keeps people stuck in their shit for years.

“what kind of structures are in place to ensure that jewish religion keeps up with the world today?”

Huh, Judaism isn’t a notebook or iPod. And thank God for that. If anything, Judaism isn’t trying to “keep u” to the world today. If anything, Judaism stands as a testament to how the world could/should be period.

“Do you believe that orthodoxy means obeying rules that are outdated, or do you believe that eventually the rules will be updated and that in the meatime you should obey the rules as a sign of faith?”

PC,

I’m not the right person to address some of your questions. But if you ever get the chance, seek out someone like Norma Joseph (Orthodox Jewish prof at Concordia U in Montreal), she’s a wonderful, bright woman who deals with the “real world” and Jewish law everyday.

However, to answer you question, no I don’t believe the laws are outdated. I believe that if I choose to ignore ‘em, it’s because I feel they are too much of a hassle to obey.

I have to weigh in on this discussion and remind y’all that sex was created by “our creator” as a loving and holy act between a man, his wife, and God. When you take God out of it, you make it just a physical act.

The whole idea behind of the laws of mikvah is that sex can be elevated above the physical. For horny 16 year olds, or any other single people (whether they live on the Upper West Side or affiliate themselves as modern orthodox or conservadox or whatever) to make some kind of formal announcement of their exclusive intention is like making an empty promise.

CK and everyone else have good points, but no one else has proposed anything concrete. I laughed about Esther’s comment, about “Jew it before you do it”, but what’s the alternative- allow hypocrisy?? Why not say “look kids, we’re giving you this ceremony, so you damn well better buck up and take this seriously and be faithful to each other.. we and everyone else in the community are going to be watching you like hawks- this is the bottom line, no excuses”. I’m basically proposing a form of tough love. This is far better than the present state of anarchy/ hypocrisy. Even though I am an anarchic Jew (sounds like another weblog, ha ha!), I bet one could even get Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist on board for my proposal. Gee, a united Jewish front on something.. that’s a novel idea, ha ha ha ha ha !!!

are you guys nuts? commitment ceremonies? call me naive, but isnt that just what most people call dating? i thought a degree of faithfulness was expected.

plus, saying its more or less ok, just so 16 year olds dont have to feel like hypocrites is a bit silly takes the naughty factor out of it. It’s kinda cruel if you think about it, how are teenagers supposed to rebel when you tell them everything is ok?

If you feel like a hypocrite then start living by your values, if it doesnt bother you, then they just aren’t your values to begin with.

Has anyone here read the article in the Mar/Apr issue of Moment about the girl, Monica, who “breaks-in” to a hasidic yeshiva in Jerusalem and spends an evening hiding in this boy’s room? It is an interesting read given the topic here. I wonder if any of the guys here would have behaved so chastely in the same circumstances? I rather doubt it.

Thanks, T_M.

Of course I agree with the Jewish view that sex can be holy, but I don’t think a one night stand classifies as holy. My point is that since these kids/ adolescents seem to want to behave like adults, then I think we should tell them “you want to make love. fine, since you’re not a financially independent person, we, your parents and the Jewish community, are going to dictate that the only way you can do this is to do it by our rules ie. a commitment ceremony in the synagogue and you have to stick by it.. otherwise all bets are off ie. we can and will criticize you vigorously and pressure you to live up to your commitments otherwise you’ll have to just be celibate until you can afford to get married”.

Call it a 21st Jewish version of the shotgun wedding. The main thing is to promote loyalty and commitment, which I think are holy attributes and as such are desired by the Eternal.

Uh, ck, dude, uh, well…

…it wasn’t Dave who brought this problem to an institutional ranking. It was “Ne’emanei Torah va’Avodah, a religious organization established in 1978 to fight haredization of the national religious community.” Their chairman, Moshe Tur-Paz, is the person who put together the forum to discuss the matter.

This is a problem the Orthodox have, not the reconstructionists or the reform or the martians. This is an Orthodox issue.

That was #1.

#2, 5000 years it hasn’t been. Okay? Lots of spillin’ the seed in the Tanach.

And #3, this is rabbinic Judaism and even it has evolved. For example, monogamy was not on the menu early on, was it?

Also, #4, the problem exists. It doesn’t exist for Reform Jews because they don’t claim that it can and should be controlled in the same way that the Orthodox claim it can…and then don’t. Wasn’t it Shtreimel who pointed out on a different day that he does not know ONE Jewishly observant couple that didn’t fool around before marriage? Not one. Others chimed in with their own similar tales.

#5, Dave wasn’t encouraging rampant sexuality, he was encouraging monogamous sexuality with a betrothed.

Because, #6, the problem already exists and it has nothing to do with Dave. So lay off Dave, he seems to be a nice guy and had an interesting idea.

I think, #7, that if your final paragraph says what I think it says, which is that it’s (a) stupid to institutionalize a rule that changes an older rule because the older rule is really really old, and that (b) it’s not reasonable to expect younger folks to deal effectively with the complexity of sexual relations,

then I would respond that point (a) is interesting but doesn’t address the complexity of this issue since these relations are happening anyway, and (b) this organization, Ne’emanei Torah va’Avodah, has identified precisely the same problem you mentioned and are seeking a solution for it. If you don’t like Dave’s suggestion, fair enough, but it is not that far removed than somebody suggesting a mikveh for unmarried women.

Please be polite to our guests or they might just feel like THEY CAN’T SPEAK UP and offer us interesting ideas.

D: People used to marry when they were like, 2 years old, because there was no need to wait. Life was simpler in the sense that what class you were born into was probably where you stayed. Disciplining children or just giving them chinuch was on a whole different plane because people didn’t need skills like they do today. If you were, for example, born to serf parents, you were going to be a serf no matter how well you knew how to do math. If you were born to wealthy parents, you would have wealth whether you knew how to articulate a thought well or not. Society then and now is beyond comparing. Furthermore, people died in the 40′s (if they were lucky). So, they didn’t need to be mature to raise children + they died really young – free time (they spent most of their days working, I believe) = no real need for premarital sex.
I remember looking through a halacha book in high school that mentioned that it was okay to have an intimate relationship with someone you were engaged to as long as there was no real intercourse. Of course, single women still (as in, since I wrote my suggestion earlier today) don’t go to the mikvah, so even if you’re not having real sex, there’s that issue of nidah.
As for all those men spilling their seeds, that’s not gonna stop, I’m sure, so they might as well do it with nice Jewish girls.

Ck, now that was a darn fine comment. In fact, it’s comments like that which keep me coming back to Jewlicious.

Okay, I really have nothing to add to that.

I don’t have teenage daughters (how old do you think I am?!) but if some schmuck came up to me on my fictitious daughter’s 16th birthday asking for a Jewish commitment ceremony, I would immediately: 1. send this teenage daughter to a distant all girl boarding school surrounded by a security fence and man-killing guard dogs; 2. proceed to prevent the boy from having any female partner in the near future by doing something sickening like, I dunno, finding an out-of-town adult actor and paying him to call on the boy’s school principal, one teacher, and a number of classmates to inform them that, sadly, this man had been until recently the boy’s lover and had just – tragically – tested positive for HIV. The boy had not been receptive to phone calls, so as a matter of public health, the man was taking it upon himself to inform said public.

But I wouldn’t be vindictive or over-protective or anything.

DON’T YOU EVEN THINK OF “COMMITTING” TO MY LITTLE GIRL, YOU SICK ANIMAL!

Well, let’s assume that he’s got great character, breeding, family, and potential for a good career – I’m not in the business of pimping off fictitious teenage daughters just because the dude has money.

But in this event, I would allow the commitment ceremony to take place (heck, I’d spring for half the expenses and the cheesy band) and as soon as it’s over send the daughter away to the same boarding school I mention above, and get the male actor to do the HIV shtick to the boy anyway. You see, now the shmuck is committed, my daughter is unavailable for sex and nobody else would want him. When she’s old enough…win/win for everybody.

I’m sure that she and he will have a fine future together if I can ever get over the fact that she might have to, you know, have sex with somebody one day.

Hrmmm, Alyssa–it seems apparent that the human mind stops maturing after seventh grade.

TM – ” 1. send this teenage daughter to a distant all girl boarding school surrounded by a security fence and man-killing guard dogs;”
you know you just created a lesbian haven?

while i don’t like the idea of 12 yr olds in thongs etc, has it been proven that this … promiscuity is the cause of delay in marriage? maybe it has something to do with modern ortho women wanting a career before getting married and having babies? or have i missed something really basic here?

T_M: “Locking up your kids is a quaint idea, but then you create shut in geeks who are afraid of the real world and don’t know how to socialize and interact with other people.”

I can attest to the existence (and in some cases, precise street address and DSM diagnosis) of some people like this–even in the Orthodox movement. But it’s not (at least not always) because their parents “locked them up” like some sort of ostracized telekinetic teen. Some people are just socially stunted, and there’s nothing to be done about it.

And Grace, I feel your friends’ pain. Send them my way and we’ll start a support group. (Oh wait, I already did. It’s called JDaters Anonymous…)

Shtreimel, if Toronto doesn’t work out, you might want to try the Upper West Side, where aforementioned Conservadox women dwell in droves.

Fuzz,

you know you just created a lesbian haven?

As long as there’s no spillin’ of seed, a little experimentation won’t hurt anybody.

Dude. I was polite, in my own admittedly vitriolic manner. The fact that i took time off of my busy schedule to respond to his comments is a sign of respect. So I was a bit of a dick. I admit it. Sue me. Dave can defend himself and if I offended him, I apologize. So there.

Ummmn…Muffti is a little confused. Was ck apologizing here? Or being even more of a dick?

ck – post number 86 – and Grace – post number 92 – have nailed it. CK your post is a beautiful statement of Judaism’s much more holistic and mature take on things.

To all those whose knee-jerk reaction was the same tradition-bashing drivel about how Judaism needs to be nosejobbed to match the “great progress” made in relations between the sexes (as if hooking up is great progress for men OR women)…. read these posts. Then weep for your own shallowness.

After being married a while, a BT friend of mind said “I am very very sorry that so many other people will always be crowded into our bedroom.” This person – like others I have met – actually envies those who married as virgins.

The Jewish notion of sex as part of a deeply committed relationship aligns body, emotion, and spirit. It cultivates true intimacy. It is a path that leads to much more self respect – especially for women – than the current meat market. You have to be very shallow – or very thick-skinned – to really think that Judaism should “revise” this system to allow casual sex.

Ben-David

Why can’t you have committed relationships with wives and concubines?

“Moving to Toronto???!!”

Yeah, my lady lives there, as well as some good friends and my folks are in Montreal. Hey, I love Vancouver, and I may live here again, but it’s time to head back down the Trans Can.

I just thought I’d chime in as another female voice. Many of the comments have been interesting and informational about the way people view the topic. However, as a public high school teacher in a rural, tiny community where we just discovered students having sex in the bathrooms, I can certainly attest to this being a problem in every community, secular or religious—-no matter what religion. Hmmm….I’ve been lucky to have positive mikvah experiences, but I played autodidact and gave myself “mikvah 101″ classes through interviews, internet searches, videos and books before I stepped in one. I did this because most of the people I talked to beforehand had horrible experiences because of anxiety and concerns over their own personal relationship to it (mostly the “is this a holy act or was this created by men to further segregate women as inferior” debate). I feel like I could probably put together info on the subject due to my own research and my experience with secular teens and most students laissez faire attitude about sex. My poor sister, when in high school and early college and yet another of her friends gave in to sex, said “if I hear one more time how it is just ‘not a big deal’ I’m going to scream!” Most of her friends (some very nice girls) had never really been led to believe that sex was anything sacred. After all of these comments, I think my sis and I (now both married) should call our parents and thank them for doing something right in raising us! Once again, thanks to Jewlicious for providing interesting posts/blogs!

Oh, yeah, Onan: his sin wasn’t just “spilling seed”, he was legally bound by the laws of levirate marriage to impregnate Tamar, his late brother’s wife. Since he knew that the children wouldn’t be legally his, he went ahead and had sex with her but in a way that would prolong his pleasure (Tamar was a famous hottie) but would not fulfill his legal obligation to give his dead brother an heir. So G-d whacked him.

Yehudah had a thrid son who should have followed both his brothers, but Yehuda was afraid that he would buy the farm as well, so he ilegally withheld him from her. In order to assert her rights, Tamar seduced Yehuda and got herself impregnated by him. He admitted his guilt in the end and publicly proclaimed that she was righteous while he was a sinner, since he had not done his duty by her to provide her with a husband to replace the others that had died (through no fault of hers).

A damn fine story. Bizarre by modern standards, but damn fine just the same.

That’s just a fancy way of repeating what I said in #99.

Ziva, thanks for your post #109, sorry it took so long to clear the cue.

How is having sex the holiest act? If the man is infertile, for example, and the union cannot produce children, is the sexuality still a holy act? Or are you implying that love between a married couple is holy?

Sorry,
I’m still trying to handle someone moving to Toronto. Even when I first approached my parents about aliyah, they were relieved that if I was moving out of hte house, then it was Israel, not Toronto.

Is she really holding you by the balls? figuratively of course.

Shtremiel, Muffti is from Toronto. And while it’s not as bad as everyone here is making out, it’s pretty damned bad. Don’t go unless you really must.

Ephraim: indeed the Tamar story is a classic (and its even more classic if you add in that Tamar was dressed as a prostitute and collected from Judah items that could uniquely identified him which she broke out right before they slaughtered her.) Muffti is curious, though, how does ejaculating on the ground prolong Onan’s pleasure? ‘specially on the ground?

Dinah, (and, really most others), Muffti is curious about an argument he has seen here. Say that Muffti grants that sex can be holy. Say that he even grants that it is at its holiest between a man and his wife (presumably in a good marriage…poor homosexuals Muffti guess are barred from perfect sex. Muffti should say that the homosexuals he knew all seemed pretty happy with their sex lives, but whatever.)

Even granting all that, this looks like a bad argument schema:

An activity A is best done under circumstances C.
Therefore, only do A under circumstances C.

Clearly this is not a valid scheme: it may be best to eat pizza at 4 a.m. from Angela’s Pizza in Montreal when you are kinda drunk/buzzed (ahem) and hungry (remember those days ck?) Nonetheless, its not like eating pizza at other times is no good. In fact, Muffti’s (many) years as a student has taught him that pizza is nearly always good. It’s just not ideal unless it from Angela’s at 4 a.m….

So why shouldn’t sex be the same way? Say it’s best when it allows transcendence over physicality to yield a sense of unity and identity with your beloved. Well, that sounds pretty good and all but would it follow that it should be avoided outside the bounds of marriage?

If there is a creator, She gave us all sorts of abilities that are best utilized under certain circumstances. Very few of these abilities lead to sin and stuff when they aren’t practiced at all times in the circumstances that are ideal.

So, Dina, yeah, Muffti would like to know why, even given that we have a specified ideal for sex, why is it bad to have sex that is sub ideal but still pretty good? Like pizza from Angela’s at 3 a.m.?

Grandmuffti, your logic is flawed. The purpose in eating pizza in either situation you mentioned remains the same: to eat pizza. If all sex is to you is physical pleasure, then I hear how having sex with your spouse or with anyone else is all the same. But that’s where it’s wrong. See, the reason sex becomes holy between two people who committed themselves to each other under a chupah is because now sex is something different: it’s the ultimate physical pleasure done for a spiritual reason–to create (and even if it’s done with no intention of creating a child, it creates a spiritual something when two people give that much pleasure to each other). So now, if a Jew’s role (this is all in my bias) is to use material things in a spiritual way, or to elevate something physical into something spiritual (like discussing divrei Torah over a delicious meal instead of just eating the food), then taking the highest physical pleasure you can have (or one of them, anyway) and experiencing that with your spouse makes it something spiritual, but when you just have sex with anyone in any way at any time, you are just having sex to have sex and there’s nothing but banality to that.

Muffti:

I have heard two explanations:

#1 Onan was obligated to impregnate Tamar so his dead brother would have an heir. Once she was pregnant, his obligation was fulfilled and he would no longer be able to have sex with her. Since she was hot and he wanted to continue to have as much sex with her as he could, he avoided impregnating her.

#2 I have also heard that it was common practice in those days to have two wives: one for pleasure and the other for breeding. Tamar was very beautiful, and Onan didn’t want to have her beauty marred by pregnancy.

Is this some kind of stealth Canadian blog? And what’s the problem with Toronto?

As far as the pizza analogy goes, even the militantly secular Muffti ought to know that Judaism attempts to raise the spiritual level of the individual by defining the way things should be done so that they become ways to inculcate holiness.

Think about it for a minute. What are the two most powerful human drives? The desire for sex and food. And what are the two things most bound and controlled by mitzvot? Exactly.

The desire for sex and food are by themselves natural desires and are morally neutral. How they are expressed determines their holness/morality or lack thereof. So Judaism seeks to inclucate holiness by setting boundaries on the expression of our most basic desires.

Or, as the secular would say, draining all the joy out of life.

Of course, I know that the Muffti, he knows all this. But I assume that he will continue to eat cheese-and-sausage pizza at 3 am. Why? Because it’s goooooood.

And if you still ask “Who sez this is holier than that and why should I care?” well, then, like, whatever, dude, you know?

The discourse is critical.

If people think that this discourse is legitimizing premarital sex in the Orthodox world, they are wrong. Many young orthodox women and men are having premarital sex already. It reminds me of the question by Christians and Catholics about whether to put condom vending machines and have “safe sex” classes in public high schools. Teens are having intercourse regardless of the condoms and “safe sex” classes. Only that with these methods of precaution, the parents and school are helping to protect their children. The discourse does not necessarily mean legitimization. It could mean, though, the difference between life and death (STDs – G-d forbid, abortion etc.).

The Orthodox world needs to recognize that many of us young adults are caught between two views. On one hand, we are being encouraged to make wise decisions about spouses. We have been witnesses to a generation of divorcees and unhappy marriages. In communities where divorce is looked upon with a degree of disdain, we have seen our parents remain together unhappily for the sake of the children, fear, complacency, or upholding their status in the community. Further, we are in a world today where it is acceptable for a person to take his/her time to self-develop and establish the maturity, clarity, humility and giving that is needed for a successful relationship. Indeed, we late 20-somethings are not outcasts for still being single.

Coincidingly, we are supposed to be virgins until marriage. The problem is that many young religious people have hastily found themselves in marriage, driven by sexual drive, only shortly after to realize a grave mismatch.

Sexual drive is a strong enough force to generate intercourse before marriage. It is also a strong enough force to cause hasty and unthoughtful decisions to get married.

The Orthodox world has to realize that (we) young adults exist in this in-between place and to have a discourse about it. Should they be encouraged to abandon other Orthodox practices because of lack of discourse? Should they be having unsafe sex, and contract, G-d forbid, Sexually Transmitted Diseases or be having abortions?

The discourse is critical.

Never gonna work, Dave. Give it up. The Orthodox are not going to go all Reform just because of some teenage canoodling. That’s just lke saying they should make pig kosher just because a lot of Jews like a BLT every now and again.

People need to talk to their kids and try to keep them away from bad influences, and, when they grow up and eave home, hope for the best.

There is no institutional solution for this and people should stop trying to find one. IF there is an institutional solution it is not the insttution abandoning its principles, it is the institution trying its best to be repsonsive to the concerns of its members while remaining within the halakha.

People who want solutions that involve abandoning the halakha already have plenty of places to go.

Um, Ephraim, if going all Reform means spilling seed, they’re already doin’ it.

O.k., I have got another idea. Why doesn’t the Jewish community promote marriages at 16, but insist that birth control be used until the married couple can provide food, shelter and clothing to their children.

I am disappointed that no one else on this thread has made any proposal to change the anarchic state of relationships today,
except extreme separation of the sexes at age 12, which is a non-starter, or letting people get married AND have children at age 14, which is also a non-starter. I look forward to some new ideas.

Muffti will not eat cheese and SAUSAGE pizza at 3 a.m. because sausage is gross. (Pepperoni, however, is a whole different matter). Anyhow, thanks for the explanation. Muffti understood roughly the Jewish reasoning behind restricting times and people w/r/t sex. He was more curious why everyone was dishing sex in general, as though its being best between a man and a woman who are betrothed means that its not worth doing otherwise. As you say, even sex that isn’t ideal is still pretty gooooood.

Ephraim, in order to try it, he’s going to have to make a married woman sin.

Absence makes the heart (and other parts of the anatomy) grow fonder, Muffti.

Cuz the Torah sez, Muffti.

That’s it, really. I know that may not mean much to you, but, hey, what can I say?

The deal is to go crazy for the two weeks sex is kosher and rest up for the two weeks your wife is niddah.

When the two weeks of waiting are up, go crazy again.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Yeah, easy it ain’t. Nor am I going to claim that there are not occasional….uhhh…breakdowns. But this is really what mitzvot are all about: to discipline yourself through striving for kedushah. In this sense kedushah is not just a state, it is a process.

There is an old Japanese story about martial arts training: if you have two carp in two separate ponds, and in one pond there is a rock but in the other pond there is not, the carp in the pond with the rock will become strong since he swims around and around the rock. The other carp will remain weak since he has nothing against which to train.

The mitzvot are our rock.

It’s hard being a Jew, Muffti.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a proposal to solve the anarchic state of sexual relationships today, apart from celibacy. I have done and I am back to doing the celibacy thing, after my divorce. However I think there must be some other solution for people who cannot or do not want to be celibate. And I am not even talking about adolescents only.

CK, my point is that everyone should judge everyone else, there is no harm, as long as everyone agrees on the rules. By the way, I am trying very hard to get remarried, but it’s very tough. Believe me, even to meet a woman for innocent dating is tough when you’re 46. I am not complaining, just stating facts.

You mean yoga of course, right?

Um, well, Dave, I know plenty of people who aren’t shomer but don’t have sex, if that’s what you mean. (Which is why I STILL think women should be allowed to go to the mikvah regardless of whether they’re married or not…)

you dont really need a mikveh, in truth, any natural, moving body of water will do. Being Tahor is important to you? Even just for spiritual reasons having nothing at all to do with negiah? Awesome. No need to complain about the system, it runs like that for a reason, just do it on your own (just know about the minimum requirements and such). Be rebellious and tahor all in one.

Dave, you may be in a very small segment of the population. I don’t know of anyone else who is willing to kiss and hold hands and nothing else, though that’s much easier for me to understand than complete abstention from physical contact.

As far as I can tell (without having conducted an investigation on the sexual habits of the Orthodox), the major difference between those who call themselves “Orthodox” and those who call themselves “Modern Orthodox” (at least on the Upper West Side in their 30s and 40s) has to do with sex (whether or not they’re willing to have it before they’re married) and food (whether or not they’re willing to eat dairy and fish in non-kosher restaurants). There also may be a slight Shabbat difference, too, especially when it comes to watching Final Fours, NFL playoffs, Olympics opening ceremonies and/or World Series games.

Oh, boy, have I ever tried Jdate! I got married to a woman who I met on Jdate, and my divorce is coming through by the end of April, hopefully.

Thanks for your kind words. I already have received the “get”,
(from an Orthodox Beit Din), and I have been advised that my civil divorce will be coming through in the next month.

Why a rock, T_M?

When you want to get physically strong, you lift weights.

When you want to get spiritually strong, you lift mitzvot.

Dave, I wish you the best of luck.

You KNOW after four dates if you want to marry someone or not. That is, if the dates were not formal, stiff and lah-di-dah. TALKING dates, not food, drink and silly restaurant glamor. These fun, flattering settings are for the birds. Since they make everyone nervous, what use are they? Or, conversely, since they give everyone a good time, again, what use are they? You would have enjoyed the evening no matter whom you were with, because the place is cool, so how can you tell if you like the person? Do’t go there! Also, there are too many women who do not want to wash anybody’s socks. Men, avoid them. There are too many men who are not looking past the shell of a woman. Women, avoid them. There are too many Jews of both sexes whose standard of beauty is non-Jewish. “She should be thin!” say the men. But we usually are not built that way. “He should be tall!” say the women. But we usually are not all that tall. Or, if tall, Jewish men are sometimes skinny. SO WHAT? We must love our race. Will you please look at the soul? Remember, every date costs something on the inside, brings you one step nearer to jaded, so spend your datinig allowance very carefully. You are better off home reading until you are so lonely you are READY. Love, Mom

Jewish Mother, maybe you should have a talk with Nice Jewish Girl?

“You KNOW after four dates if you want to marry someone or not.”

Yikes. Double yikes.

I am sorry Jewish Mother, Judaism is not a race. If so, I being Sephardic am not Jewish because no one in my family ever has lived in central or eastern Europe. In that case what about the Falashas or the Ben Israel of India. They’re Jewish, but they’re not white skinned.

Think metaphor, T_M. In the story, the carp swims around and around the rock and so gets strong, while the carp in the pool withiout the rock just wanders aimlessly and so doesn’t develop his strength.

You ought to at least know that one of the basic ideas of Judaism is that a person has two sides, a good side (the yetzer ha tov) and the bad side (the yetzer ha rah). Mitzvot (the rock) develop the good side, lack of mitzvot allow the bad side to flourish.

The indiscriminate indulgence of desires and submission to the urge for instant gratification creates lazy, selfish people who have a greater tendency to indulge their desires even at the expense of other people. The mitzvot are there to shape and channel our desires in productive ways so that this doesn’t happen.

That sounds simplistic, but that’s the main idea.

Yeah, I know. Killjoys.

I think T_M brings up some good points. I personally believe that God judges on the basis of our actions, not only or not at all on our religious observances. Therefore even an atheist, if they are a good person, is blessed by God. I personally feel sorry for an atheist because they are the loser, since it is they who are rejecting God. Simply put, God does not need us, we need God.
The mitzvot are there to help us become better human beings and
as a means to an end. Sadly, to some people they have become an end in themselves. On the other hand, those who reject the mitzvot, it is their loss, because they are missing a self-strengthening system which is sometimes/ often necessary, since we are not perfect beings.

Staying single is what some people want! They won’t admit it, possibly even to themselves. They put on sweet, pained, wistful expressions, and claim they are trying to find the right spouse … meanwhile, wasting a lot of people’s time and money, using the dating system as R and R from their demanding jobs. It’s just their entertainment budget. That’s why I said, four dates and no more – if you REALLY want to get married. Look, it’s a free country, and there’s no law against being single and having fun forever, but just don’t kid people, or yourself. And don’t complain. If you want the goodies, you have to pay the price.

Hey, ck, we could have a section called Mother’s Marriage Advice.

Fourth Date Rule: I meant: you should only date a specific person a maximum of four times. On these four dates there should be a lot of hanging out, and talking, talking. After four long, talky dates, in quiet places so you can hear what they say, you will KNOW what you think of this person. Let’s say you think they are nice, but, you are entirely sure you will never, ever want to marry them. So: wish them courteously and sweetly well, but, never chat with, or hang out with, them again. Do them the kindness of leaving them alone!! BUT, IF, on date number four, the idea of NEVER, EVER seeing them again causes you terrible pain, guess what? That is your spouse! This is the path of getting to the chuppa, as opposed to dosing your loneliness with a little bit of this and a little bit of that. We set deadlines at work, don’t we? The point of a four-date system is to get some INTENSE FEELING into your life. Let’s not be comatose. Not, whate-e-e-ever.

You know after four dates…

I don’t get it. What’s a fourth date? I thought dates only came in single units.

T_M, you’re jumping to conclusions. You asked “Why a rock?”. So I tried to explain what I meant. You took this to mean that I think people who aren’t observant are lazy and selfish.

First, I never said anything like that. However, I think that a lot of seemingly non-observant people have been conditioned by their (or their parents’, or their grandparents’) Jewish upbringing so that they have internalized certain aspects of Jewishness. Fine and good. My point is that this comes originally from a religious and mitzvot-laden life which inculcates these things. Lose this and eventually all the rest will follow in a generation or two or three. Like it or not, mitzvot are the stove by which all Jews warm themselves. The further away you are, the colder you get.

Hey, Streimel. OK. You have friends who dated for a year or more, and then, founded wonderful families. But: does that also mean that you have unmarried friends for whom the date-for-a-year-or-more system is not working? There is too much total abundance: enough beauty, enough time, enough money (yes, money- if you can afford to go out, you have no serious money deprivations). People might benefit from artificial, self-imposed, strictures, to get some structure into their free-form existences. A four-date limit could do that. The idea is to get a method for knowing one’s true feelings and the ability to make a DECISION based on them. To listen for the inner voice that says, I will miss this person deeply if I never see him or her again. That is very different from the blah habit of dating and dating, more or less anybody who is amusing, makes no trouble, and gets you out of the house. That is not a life! Take control. What is your objection? That you might let the right person go, because you did not give them enough time? But: you will realize, later, suddenly, BOOM, you totally MISS this person you once dated four times a while ago, so, you call them… – guest what? That is your spouse! IF that is true, they will feel the same way! Now you are having a strong feeling for once! Passion! Your unconscious mind has worked the problem out. The four date limit helped it do this, by cutting down on clutter. It is so important to know how to be alone. We should not hang with people just to avoid being alone.

Yeah four dates? I can fake it for four dates easy. Wouldn’t even break a sweat.

This is why Muffti is so gen-u-ine. Not only can’t he stay charming, he can’t even start out that way. When a girl misses him after four dates, its the real deal.

Charm? What about life goals, dignity, guts, brains, intelligence, honesty and manners? Put a lid on all this “fun”, and only “date” a person four times. All your money should be spent on your APPEARANCE and schooling, spend almost nothing on food and drink. Just take a walk and talk with someone, or have coffee. In the DAYTIME. In the first ten minutes of any acquaintance, you see the truth about someone. Sometimes you only two minutes. Acute, penetrating observation can be learned: notice the shoes, nails and teeth. What reading material are they carrying? Above all, how do they act toward other people, NOT you, especially store clerks and service personnel, who cannot hurt them in any way? The rose colored glasses fall in front of your eyes after ten minutes, and you start making excuses for them, because you want so much to like someone! Watch out for the rose colored glasses! There is no way to prevent them, so observe very hard before the ten minutes are up. Stay away from “nice” settings, even pretty parks. Don’t have fun!! Size people up! THEN, AFTERWARD, have your fun. Then it will be permanent fun. You are allowed one great restaurant Date as a final test, at the end, AFTER you feel good about someone. NOT at the beginning of an acquaintance. At the start, the more awkwardness the better, because then you will see the truth about them. You will see how they handle awkward situations. When you spend your life with someone, there are going to be a lot of awkward situations, so let’s get to that right away. Are they patient? Mature? Creative? Do they fall apart, or get furious? Keep a bit of distance: when someone is still nobody to you, you still have rights. You can ask, nicely, difficult questions. And, you don’t have to answer theirs. Indeed, the questions are just as interesting as the answers. Nobody is caring yet. Sizing people up has never been easy, but dating makes it close to impossible. Just meet people, but don’t date. Hang out, but only before sundown! Trust your unconscious. It may be smarter than you are giving it credit for. Distrust the night! Go to sleep. The day is when you will find what you want. At night it is all a game, a deadly game, that steals your life. It doesn’t matter if your friends think you are no fun. They are right. You are not here to be, or have, or give them, fun, but to be happy. Happy is not the same as fun. Just find your spouse, and your friends will fall where they may. Too bad for your friends. They are not family. Start a family. Love, Mom

“Someone can remain charming and thoughtful for four dates, thats not too hard. It’s what they are like in the longer term that counts.”

Wise words from a friend:
The first 4-6 MONTHS of a new relationship don’t count. They’re an illusion, empty. After 4-6 months you start to date the person that your dating.

Wise words from a rabbi:
If a woman wants to get married, she should never date a man more than a year. If she’s dating him more than a year, and he’s still not sure about marriage, dump him…move on. There’s a good chance he’ll never be ready.

Jewish Mother,

We have (including myself) a generation of young people who observed insipid, boring marriages based on anything but growth/intimacy, disintegrate into divorce (at least half of ‘em), couple that with all the other socio-economic variables that make marriage look like a life sentence from hell, and it’s understandable why folks are dragging their feet. You can go on and on about the loss of Jewish children and the like, but there’s a louder voice you must counter, and it is this: “But if married life resembles what my friends parents, uncles, parents…had, than no thanks.”. If you can do that, you’ll be successful.

j

I realize I have said something that needs to be made clear! People can’t marry because they are not frum, and, the same exact people can’t be frum, because they are not married! Ouch! So: there is nothing to do but be a little married, and a little frum, and work toward Bal Teshuva, with the best person you can find who has the same goal. With patience and steady effort you will eventually be BOTH married AND frum and life will be much better, even good. Good Shabbos. Is she making chicken? I can smell it from here. The crock pot is bubbling with cholent. Can I come over? Love, Mom

Ann Landers had nothing on you, Jewish Mother. Nor does Shmuley Boteach for that matter.

Oh, and this is our first topic to reach 200 comments.

Thank you for your kind words. They make my joints hurt less. If anybody wants to reprint anything I wrote without crediting me, go ahead. Make a book. Start a movement. I think I am talked out. At least for today. Love, Mom

Shtremiel, you’ve finall said something Muffti agrees with completely.

Ah, Ahmad, it’s good to finally have among us a true intellectual. Your magnificent contribution to this discussion has now been recorded for posterity.

Don’t listen to him, Ahmad. Muffti says rock on and continue your quests to see, ummn, chests!

If all of these people who are single would join the Aish/Discovery way, there would immediatly be 25 % more marriages right there.

Kosel is pronounced by those not living in Israel. It implies a lack of connectedness to Israel, which is a fact, not an emotion. Everyone living in Galus ‘enjoys’ this gilgul.

Mah ha-bayah im Ivris Ashkenazis? Zeh loishn ha-koidish! Nashim ohevos anashim she’medabrim Ivris im shinshun. Emes!

…

See Michael, right there you lost a whole bunch of prospective mates.

Aish Freak, I’m happily married but thanks for the kind offer. I’d encourage you to ask Michael to join your groups, but he needs to get over his speech impediment first.

I already knew I had to control my hebrew r’s being from Connecticut and Boston, but now I have to control my t’s too because I’m not in Israel? Hebrew is so much harder than I thought!

Michael, check out the second Shoshana Damari song on the new Idan Reichel CD for GREAT Sephardic pronunciation.

Lynn, keep your Ts and all will be well.

Jewish Mother, we have other topics around here and your sagacity is welcome there as well.

Of course. If you look at all the Jewish Outreach groups Aish HaTorah/Discovery has the most interesting programs. Into them you enter and you exit a different person. This helps to focus on your dating and finding the right person.

What is the right person? There are 2 paths. One can be someone who is warm and emotional where you are cold and calculating. This is the attraction of the opposites. Each partner compliments the other. Through Discovery, you will learn WHAT to ask on dates, HOW to make stimulating conversation, and most importantly, the ANALYSIS skills that can help you to move forward, to take you fear and not let it stampede you away.

I am a Jewish woman recently divorced. Met a nice modern orthodox on Jdate and am in the begiining of a nice relationship. I am not to sure on the laws because it seems he has his own interpretations. No condom? No intercourse-for me. This spilling seed thing seems to be fine with him when it comes to oral sex-whats the deal? Is swallowing not considered spilling seed in the orthodox community. Please-please enlighten me.