It’s not even their land in the first place.

What a bunch of drama queen pussies.

Each of these “evicted” families is being given several hundred thousand AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS. Not to mention a nice new comfy home in the expanding areas of the West Bank.

A more pathetic bunch of mewling crybaby fakers the world has never seen!

Fuck Israel!

All other crying is a waste of time.

I would love to carve out an israeli and cook him.

I wonder if they taste like Pork. Irony in it’s finest.

What I can’t stomach is Americans emailing me and telling me how I am wrong and how this will bring peace and how this is so great. Easy for them to say from their air-conditioned huge homes where their biggest worry is where to go for lunch that day.

I see the Yesha leades as people in denial for the last 20 years. People frightened of the leftists who fought against the idea of removing the arabs. People who said let the arabs live here we will both live here. They said that if the arabs kill us we will build more. They didn’t understand that such a thing just can’t be They just didn’t understand…and in their errors of judgment criticized those who saw things with much more clarity.

To me the question is what will they espouse now. Will they finally understand or will they continue in their blindness. Unfortunately I have no false illusions for myself. I do not expect them to support those of us who want the arabs removed. I expect more fear of the leftists and turning a blind eye to the tyranny of the government when they ban parties and put Jews into administrative detention for their views.

That is how I see it.

As far as Hillul hashem goes this is the definition:

mechon-mamre.o...
“20 And when they came unto the nations, whither they came, they profaned My holy name; in that men said of them: These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of His land. 21 But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whither they came.”

Rashi explains what is obvious ie- The weakness of the Jewish people and their being driven off their land is a profanation of His holy name becasue it implies His weakness.

Even though we did it to ourselves nevertheless he is perceived as weak and impotent. His holy name is thereby profaned.

I would suggest that you read Tanach. I’d like to know where you got your definition of Kiddush Hashem.

I appreciate the invite. If it means knocking the
Rabinim for the Kehilla of the Jews of Yesha, I am not in on that. I don’t see the reason. I have been impressed with many of the leaders of Yesha and support thier activity and percieve them as true Israeli Patriots. I was in Chevron eir Hakodesh a few times over the years. I was a Shabat guest at the Hesdar Yeshiva at Beit Ramano and Rabbi Levenger. I love those guys and in a lot of ways wish I was there…. I was in Chevron in summer 2003 this time of year and loved it there. I saw the difference in the attitude of the Army since the late eighties. I don’t know how things have changed since 2003, but what a difference since 89′ when I spent some time there. I see a need to get on the
good side of the Army. I have reason to think that much of the credit of the change I saw was due to Yesha Council acting in a positive way and the Hesdar system working in a win – win way for
everybody. Those are some of the factors that go into effective action that helps bring real peace.

A G-d given birthright to what?

In order for others to stay in addition to keeping the seven commandments they would have to accept that Israel is ours.

So I don’t see where we disagree.

The answer for Am Yisrael is not to become like the animals around us, but to make the animals around us become more human.

Ther real issue is all of these ‘good guys’ (as you call them) yelling and condemning those who saw this coming. They were false prophets of hope. They helped ban kahane. Now we must clearly place blame on them and say WE TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

Its time for a change. A change for all of Israel becasue if there is no change Netsach I guarantee you worse things are coming.

Blame hashem ?! I would never be so foolish when we do it to ouselves. Of course he won’t help us.

Now for a Dvar Torah:

mechon-mamre.o...
“55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as thorns in your eyes, and as pricks in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 And it shall come to pass, that as I thought to do unto them, so will I do unto you.”

ie- if after I give you the land you refuse move the enemy out…troubles will come upon you and more troubles until finally when you still refuse to do what I say I will do to you what I did not want to do to you- what I would have done to your enemies.

Netsach there is nothing to question G-d about. If you care about Israel and the Jewish people youb would join me.

Why not blame Hashem Yisbarach for obviously
arranging this. After all, Gam Zu Latovah right? I try not to doubt that.
I doubt the good of this is percieved or concieved by the small minds of the Government in power of the Military at the moment that came up with this expulsion. Nothing said by the proponents of the dis-engagement ever impressed me.

Who now thinks the real time security of the region is improved?

Who really thinks that the PA could handle anything in a stable way that makes life safe for anybody?

Is throwing money at them to further thier real
terrorist instincts really going to help?

I have a lot of questions and not to many answers.
I would appreciate a more here and now attitude in dealing with the more real problems that were not there just a few weeks ago. I feel pontificating from the sidelines useless. Another problem: last week I felt a need to doven harder, more tsadaka and improve my learning sedar. Now that I feel the forces of good have lost; That improvement is much harder now.

One thing I don’t doubt is that the Rabbis in
the Yesha Council and the guys with the “RAV”
jackets are the “good guys.” I don’t see how in the aftermath of the loss of a viable Jewish Province to lay blame in that direction is needed.

How much energy to we have to start in with the blame game?

Few if any there seemed to “wimp out” when it came to challenging this expulsion. Brave souls tried to prevent what is apparently bad from happening. Not just men but Women and children. To those of those who think that the Jewish Residents of Gaza can be just shlepped aside and scattered to prevent more fuss are mistaken. That may be the wish of the small minded framers of the expulsion or the proponents of the tragedy.

We need to spend our energies cleaning up the
mess…. The mess was made from a lot of good
things; like good Jewish cities and productive and prosperous commerce and agriculture.
I would like to see good answers as to what to do
with all that potential that was just demolished. So far not so much solutions have been in effect. Just the mission: Get the Jews out…. Thats all that has been assuredly done. Yeah, the Army succeeded in that mission. The Army hasn’t said much coherent things about the aftermath. I did see impressive Ahavat Yisroel for the imediate interaction with the Army and the Residents durring much of the forcefull removal of people. Do we expect this relationship to continue? I hope so, but I am not certain. I am not to sure that was part of the “mission.”

In every war He saved us. What do we do in return?
1. give the land He gave us to an enemy
2. Let a mosque stand on His holy site
3. violate the sabbath and bring pork into israel
4. drive jews out of their land

Do I question Him?! Of course not. Do I expect him to save us from ourselves? I can’t expect that. Why should He when we throw what he gave us back at Him. I fear for us Joel very much.

G-d helps only those who help themselves.

Thats why I speak out because its our turn our turn to do what is right. Our turn to show that we will follow Him to do what is right – to fear Him and not others- and then hopefully hopefully He will overlook all these terrible things that we are doing so that we do not bring another Holocaust upon ourselves.

I am talking about the 50,000 who marched to kfar maimon and the 250,000 who went to the Kotel.

They could have stopped it but they were told not to by the hapless leaders.

But understand the WHOLE picture. If this was the only thing I would be quiet. But it is the same leaders who denounced rabbi kahane and who even now are too frightened to say to throw the arabs out. They are always looking for ‘public opinion’ and they are concerned lest they look too ‘radical’ they therefore in fear don’t speak the truth and this is the culmination of their foolish policies. That is why I speak out- because this is another episode of a larger picture…

listen Purim hero there are people now who haven’t done anything aside for speak their mind who are in prison under administrative detention.

The government fears them because they don’t cave in- does the government fear the Yesha leaders?! No because the Yesha leaders are full of fear of the govenment.

For 35 years, more, the residents of Gaza have been the frontline zionests. They’ve put their neck on the line for Israel. That’s why this hurts so badly, why it seems like a stab in the back from your brother. (Et tu Brutis) These people have more of a connection to Am Yirael and Eretz Yisrael, and dream of a end of violence more then anyone else. When the disengagment started they were dumbfounded, there was anger, feelings of betrayal, and pure numbness in the hearts of those who lived there, but as angry as they were, a violent responce was never in their vocabular, leadership or not, virtually non of those individuals could ever will themselves to hurt another of their brothers, virtually non could ever will themselves to turn on the army that protects their beloved country and has protected them for so many years. All there was for them to do was to pray, to cry, and to hope. To streach out the events for as long as possible awaiting some form of governmental or divine intervention. The “kapo-like” leaders didn’t condition their people not to fight back, they represented their people and expressed the reality. “We feel wronged. We feel Pain. We’re Going to Resist, and Pray for it not to take place. But we aren’t going to hurt our brothers, or our Nation any more then it’s already being hurt. It’s the wrong decision, but after a certain point, it’ll have to be accepted, because the alternative of Violence is not an option.” The role of these leaders was not just to give Chizuk to their commmunitees, it was more important. Many thousands flocked to Gaza to show support and participate in the resistance. It is to those non-residents, who were less numb, and more angry, that the Gaza Leaders spoke to. To them it was important to remind them not to use violence, important to try to convey to them the guidlines of the situation, the will of the residents, and the mentality of the people. You’ll notice very minimal violence took place, B”H, and what did was small scale individual people, and a lot of that was turned inwards. (The Acid story, the only story of group violence was debunked, proven not true, and retracted, Western media sure likes jumping to conclutions based on shaky unidentified -read Palistinian – eye witnesses.)

So, in the end, was it painful? Yes Was it Difficult? Yes Are the Leaders in Gaza “Kapo-like” A resounding NO. If anything they were the opposite, willing their own people to resist far more then they would have on their own. Most would have numbly been carried off, unable to resist, or even live a daily life. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the leaders and the people of Gaza, they were the cream of the crop, I only hope we havn’t ruined them.

My point is the Kapo-like leadership of Yesha who deluded the people into thinking that if they march in circles in Kfar Maimon without confronting the soldiers everything ‘would be OK.’ All this sweet-talk they did at the behest of the government who told them not to resist too much.

I notice that that was my comment 35′s main point and in your response in comment 36 you didn’t mention it at all.

Maybe in a debating team addressing a different point and ignoring the main point would sway the public but I’m not going to let you get away with that.