There is no problem. I was just curious about why you are curious. I mean you were polite and respectful in your discussion, but for an atheist it seems like a weird thing to be curious about.
What I mean to say, without denying you the right to be curious, is that a religious person or a person who may be interested in becoming religious would have a deeper purpose in trying to understand these questions. I was just curious if your curiosity is akin to an anthropologist looking at some primitive tribe and going – “I see, now tell me again why you are waving those branches all around you and chanting as you walk around in circles?”

Since neither E-kvetcher nor Muffti thinks it’s a good argument Muffti isn’t sure what the problem is. Muffti was just curious about how the tradition conceives of a certain phenomenon.

e-Kvetcher always gets a kick out this kind of thing because it reminds him of an old philosophers trick/joke:

Muffti: I don’t recognize the existence of (fill in the blank, say, G-d).
e-Kvetcher: What thing don’t you recognize?
Muffti: The existence of G-d!
e-Kvetcher: Oh, so you are saying that there is a G-d and you don’t recognize it’s existence?

e-Kvetcher, of course, has made Muffti look ridiculous since Muffti is both saying that there is something, and that it doesn’t exist.

e-Kvetcher doesn’t endorse this style of argument either, but wonders why Muffti wonders about the nature of G-d?

Happy Sukkot

OK, kewl, that was very interesting. Thank you.

That is, return to the pure, original self-conception that should guide us.

We also note that “teshuva” uses a noun formation that implies repeated/constant/abstracted action.

Another example that is conceptually nearby is “tefilla” – which is the same noun formation applied to the root for “judge/evaluate”. So what is translated as “prayer” is thus another form of stock-taking – and here too, the 18 blessings at the core of the amidah (silent prayer) provides a “laundry list” of points to focus on – concenctric rings of self-awarenes starting from the intimate point of mindful awareness (”chonen ha’daat”) through to our physical existence (”rofeh cholei amo yisrael” and “mevarech hashanim”) outward to our communal roles (ohev tzedakah umishpat) and on to national redemption (boneh Yerushalayim).

There is also room for more specific personal meditation (as per the custom of inserting personal “petitions” or thoughts in the blessing “shome’a tefilah”).

Similar pattern with the Yom Kippur litany.

It’s all primarily about us, and refinement of our goals and will.

Rabbi Dessler writes that people should not think in terms of crime and punishment when imagining the heavenly tribunal. He puts forward a better analogy – that of a heavenly Investor evaluating a business venture. This puts the emphasis less on our guilt and powerlessness, and more on the centrality of our self-concept, action, and stewardship as beings blessed with free will.

But Muffti agrees that if the viduy is not intended as a step along the direction of appologizing/repenting and is more of a list of ways that you know you have fallen short, then the considerations don’t apply.

Thanks, by the way, to y’all. Muffti is learning a lot.