The truth is, if the police wanted to, they would have a damn good case to a Bait Din. A Bait Din that even the rowdiest settler fraction would go along with.
So would many on the other side of the baton or bulldozer also have thier case. However, it seems the current bulldozer people side wouldn’t deal with a Bait Din, only thier politicos and civil court advocates. One day things may change and the kind of Government the police and bulldozer people work for and what kind of Court they answer to. Untill then, the delusional messichists don’t have much of a choice about thier lot.

Because this squable with just a few settlers and what, 9 houses, in Amona is nothing, right?

It makes for good distraction for what else going on. What else could be happening?
Nothing at all…. bussiness as usuall.

Shabat Shalom Josh

Whoever was in Amona, trying to get in the way of police bulldozers, knew that by being in the same area of a few stonethrowers (probably not even dependant on them), they (and their parents) were waiving any civil rights they thought they had. Gotcha. Only now did that all become clear and as well as the fact that themiddle is always right.

Shabbat shalom.
Word.

Some say Police, some say brick chucking Messianic phanatics….

Maybe both are guilty?

In the theatrical atmosphere of these confrontations, there seem to be those amongst us who like to compare the “settlers” to “palestinians.” That is another area where there is something of guilt on both sides. We could go on with examples. I personnally am loath at such a chicken shit analogy. I don’t even want to go there, its just crap.

We will see how easy life will be without the Gaza strip to manage now that the “settlement enterprise” isn’t there.

We will see how things will go with these “settlement enterprise” removals as they happen.

I am not convinced that we will pay more of a price for not having the “settlement enterprise” in Gaza. Also, how much more are we going to pay once the settlements on the chopping block are removed?

So tell me anybody:

How have things just been improved since last September?

It has been several months. We should know something by now, right?

What has happened since then?

The March elections haven’t happened either. There is some indication that Kadima and Olmert are going to win. That all could change in a short time leaving who knows what….

So, let the army and police practice on settlers. One day, who knows when those some police and army units are going to deal with some other rowdy group of trouble makers. We don’t know from which group or from where.

If you post an email, I can send you an 1800 word testimony (in hebrew) in .doc format.

(in case that link didn’t pop the intended article)

IDF Held Accountable For Large-Scale Littering at Amona
10:46 Feb 07, ’06 / 9 Shevat 5766
By Ezra HaLevi

The Society For the Protection of Nature has protested the fact that the IDF left the rubble of the homes it destroyed in Amona, as well as the remains of roadblocks it erected, against the law.

The Shomronbranch of the Society delivered its protest in writing to IDF Central Commander Yair Naveh. In addition to protesting the fact that huge piles of rubble were left in Amona, the group included pictures of piles of garbage and waste left haphazardly by soldiers in places where checkpoints had been set up to prevent activists from reaching Amona.

“I am writing to inform you that I intend to press charges against you personally for criminal infractions violating sanitary laws due to the large concentrations of garbage left at junctions and on the sides of the road where roadblocks were set up during the house-destruction in Amona,” the society’s chairman Yitzchak Meir wrote in his letter to Naveh. “I similarly intend to file charges regarding the piles of building materials left by your men in Amona.”

Copies of the letter were sent to the Environment Ministry, to the Civil Administration and to the Binyamin Regional Municipal Council.

The Society For the Protection of Nature is a municipal body charged with enacting environmental regulations in the region. According to the law, the rubble of a demolished building is the responsibility of whoever demolished it – the IDF in the case of Amona.

The closest appropriate dump is located in Bareket, near Ben Gurion Airport. Another option for the rubble is to bring in heavy equipment to crush the remaining rubble for use in future foundations. If one of the options is not carried out by Central Commander Naveh, the Society for the Protection of Nature warns that he will be prosecuted for abandoning building refuse.

Click here for our free Daily News Report from Israel

Published: 10:39 February 07, 2006
Last Update: 10:46 February 07, 2006

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Messianism has everything to do with this. Only those who are caught up in a fanatical, divinely-sanctioned fervor will show such disregard for their countrypeople and such willingness to put their own children at risk.

Anyway, what sexual assaults are you referring to? Please cite a source.

Amona was coming down. Period. There shouldn’t have been buses laden with people traveling there specifically to prevent a government sanctioned action. There shouldn’t have been anything other than a sit-down peaceful protest.

Yeah, I hear you, demonstrations are a waste of time in democracies.

Anyway, I wasn’t there, and neither were you, but from what I read from multiple personal accounts (did you bother verifying anything other than news reports and your own assumptions before building your opinion) was that the plan was to be a passive sit-down protest. Rabbis were there with their classes, Ulpana teachers with their girls – all to show them the effective use of protesting an issue they felt strongly about instead of just letting life go on. A) I’m sure that some kids were looking for trouble, no one denies that, but B) and I get this from many of the testimonials, was that when others saw the police overreact, even from when they arrived in the middle of the night, they decided to throw objects as well, and another ‘but’, most of the protesters stayed passive and didn’t fight back the entire time, even the girls who were sexually and psychologically assaulted. I’ve read many accounts of people wanting to leave the scene, leave the houses and not make trouble, but the police troopers would not let them out before drawing blood from each one. I’ve read of a couple of MDA medics were were beaten as well and specifically told not to come forward (one did anyway).

I told you there was nothing to discuss with you. Even if some people had died there, you’d still be in ‘they should have known what to expect’ mode. And again, no one is looking for your sympathy. They/we are merely trying to show you that something sadistic went on, and that it will one day come looking for you as well. Mob says that ‘we’ (Israel and other non-far-leftists) didn’t say anything when the Palestinians were abused after the fact, no one said anything when the ultra-orthodox were abused at their Shabbat/grave exhuming protests, no one said anything [substantial] when the far-leftists were abused at their ‘protests’, and you and most others are denying that anything was wrong with the police reaction at Amona either. I have no doubt about this degradation into a police state. The next time a workers protest blocks a road and gets loud, we should be ready when the Yasam comes and bash heads too, all with government support.

Haifadude, it’s been tried before. But I’m already beyond that. My point is that if a kid throws a stone, and even wounds a policeman, then the only thing that should be done to him if his hands are now empty, is pushed to the ground and handcuffed. What happened in Amona was that the police were not selective at all and charged anything that moved and especially if they talked back and asked for mercy.

For instance, as a demonstrator, you can use megaphones, you can shout and cry, you can handcuff yourself as much as you want to get enough time in front of TV… but you cannot touch policemen in any way and you cannot throw stuff at them.

As long as you do what’s allowed, you can demonstrate. If you start using violence, you get the “go to jail” card.

I mean, Josh, it’s not Israel’s fault that messianism has taken hold of the settlement movement. If you guys are going in another direction and assume that you’re being alienated because you’ve decided to go in that direction then why not come back into the fold. It’s easy: stop setting yourselves up as victims and opponents. The country needs you to move into defensible borders and stop dreaming that somehow 2 million Palestinians are going to disappear.

As for the violence that took place, violence is never excusable. Right? So why on earth did those settles have rocks and concrete blocks at the ready? Why did the police suspect they would have guns and set up snipers? Why was there an officer mole in the IDF’s Samaria command sending information to settlers informing them about the police’s timetable? Amona was coming down. Period. There shouldn’t have been buses laden with people traveling there specifically to prevent a government sanctioned action. There shouldn’t have been anything other than a sit-down peaceful protest. But there wasn’t, and claiming alienation is not an excuse. Next thing you know you’ll start burning embassies and blaming it on Western governments.

Please remember, no one wants your sympathy, only for you to wake up: tinyurl.com/8e...

Okay. michael/middle, so you’re saying that if house #3 has been relentlessly dumping cinder blocks on police heads for a half hour but then run out of blocks, sit down, lock arms, and wait, THEN, by your justice, the police are justified to get on the roof and draw blood from every single human? Well, the kids violated the law, right?

Let me paraphrase Middle: ‘People who violate the law should expect to get bashed with a hardwood police batton on the head and other body parts. Even if they are 15 year old girls holed up in house #5.’

middle,
Do we have to get into why and how, post dolphinarium attack, an incensed third of the voters gave Sharon their confidence to whip terrorist butt and not to implement the Mitzna plan to unilaterally retreat from Gush Katif, that they/we should have known that he would:
A) pull a 180 and announce a unilateral retreat from Gush Katif,
B) ignore his Likud platform and constitution,
C) ignore an internal likud referendum he promised to abide by
D) actually implement Mitzna’s unilateral retreat,
E) not seriously fight terrorism,
F) severely wound the likud by breaking off with a sizable splinter group but not its debt,
G) lie to the public about severe health problems,
H) roll over and leave Olmert (from the irrelevant #33 position in the last elections) in charge,
I) have state attorney Mazuz interpret the ‘law’ and leave Olmert in power even though Sharon is virtually permanently incapacitated,
J)all while the media protects Sharon, his splinter group, and the new splinter party like the home team.

I already know that the ‘people’ will vote for a combined 80 seats of the same thing (labour, likud, kadima). My ‘movement’ has long since been convinced that it has no political power, no matter how many ministers it has in the government, or how many seats are coloured orange in the knesset. I’ve been trying to tell you that many, many people are simply not going to vote because they have given up on this ‘democracy’. NU, waffled, Mafdal betrayed them, and no one misses a change to say that voting for Marzel is throwing away your vote – so why bother anyway? But you reaction is ‘so what if a growing sector of society is becoming marginalized and alienated. Sucks to be them.’

It’s sad that it has come to this, but Israel needs to be a country of laws where the law is respected. These people intentionally violate the law.

Oh and Josh, you keep claiming this is an illegitimate government doing illegitimate things. You did the same during the disengagement. This is a legitimate government and its actions are entirely legitimate. What are you going to say on March 28 when those who support your movement garner a handful of seats compared to the dozens that other parties gain?

‘Revisionism’ – only a week later. If you were really following the ‘news’, you would have heard that the Amona people denied MYesha leadership rights on the struggle and went it alone. Go to their site, no mention of Myesha.

I never denied rocks were thrown. If you don’t want to believe me that the police injured hundreds of people who were not resisting, then believe what you want. Video and stills sho otherwise. The police broke the law, hundreds of times that day, and you will blindly support it. Good for you.

The situation demanded the police call a ‘time out’, distance themselves and work with cool heads. But it was more important ‘not to negotiate’ with troublemakers.

Don’t believe me, who cares. I’m just warning you that if in the past the ‘extremists’ could be defined as Kahanists and Folks from Yitzhar, then let it be known that many ‘normal’ people have joined the ranks of those who view the government and security forces leadership as illegitimate and not to be trusted.

And if your argument about the children going of their own accord because they’re “sick of bending over and letting the disengagement happen,” which itself smacks of revisionism to make the settler leadership guiltless in all this violence, it’s still a pretty poor commentary on the nature of settler youth, who somehow think it’s appropriate to attack police and soldiers. And don’t act like this kind of stuff isn’t encouraged by the settler old guard. I was there at that protest in Jerusalem. I heard it from the stage. “You are the best youth in the world.” These kids are systematically radicalized to do the dirty work for their parents and elders, who can shrug and say “It wasn’t us! They did it themselves because we just couldn’t contain them anymore!” when the blood starts flying.

And as I recall, you claimed the disengagement from Gaza wouldn’t happen. Looks like you were wrong. I don’t think I’ll be putting much stock in your clairvoyant abilities. If the settlers and their ilk are marginalized, it’s because they purposely removed themselves from Israeli society in order to fulfill their own short-sighted holy messianist-nationalist vision.

Money makes the world go around,
in contrast though, there is no shortage of settlers who are living meager lives on barren hilltops and don’t care about foreign money.

One basic human right, especially of criminals, is that once a person has stopped his actions, he cannot, and must not be hurt, in anyway.

If a kid threw a rock on a policeperson, he needs to be arrested and brought to trial, but if the rock is no longer in his hand, a hair of his can’t be touched. Likewise, a murderer caught in the act, cannot be harmed if the gun is no longer in his hand. Once said person raises his hands and surrenders, or merely stands around or lying on the ground, the game is over – police can’t do anything accept place handcuffs and escort to paddywagon.

The nightstick is supposed to be a defensive weapon used in order to defend, disarm or subdue a violent attacker who does not give up.

The mounted horseman is used only to stake territory out and distance protesters from a location not by using the horse as an offensive weapon (plowing directly into crowds, running over others) or the novelty whipping of protesters too.

The police broke the law last Wednesday. Don’t justify it, because nothing can justify it.

Next up, two things: First, I can assure you that the majority children were NOT sent by adults. You might not want to believe it, but virtually all of these kids went on their own, against the wishes of parents, teachers, and principals. The ‘adults’ actually didn’t want a situation, but the kids were sick of bending over and letting the disengagement happen the way it did.

Second, and last: If there were 3000 people at Amona last week, I can assure you that next time their will be double, if not more people. Olmert called a bluff, and wasted it. There won’t be any more disengagements from any hilltop. Him and his illegitimate government created a situation which marginalized a wider sector of society than those 30 Amona hilltop families.

It is stupid to support the lawbreakers no matter where you reside.

However, I am getting the impression that things are changing really fast. That the old worldviews on left and right, settlers, charadi, religious zionist, kibutsnik, likudnik must be losing alot of thier meaning. I am getting the feeling that the old bias of the respective positions are likewise failing. That may be the point of a lot of what is happening it seems.