The other day Ariel Beery from Blogs of Zion posted an article which served as a good preface for his op-ed in the Jerusalem Post where he critically observes the habit among many young Jews – especially among those with the hubris to call themselves “progressive” as if the rest of us are, uh, regressive – to offer support to many others even as other members of their religion or nation are suffering and need just as much assistance.
Ariel, of course, brings up a significant issue although he does so gently and without true reproach despite the fact that often these same “progressive” “new Jews” are actually offering support to enemies of Israel. They certainly do so with their political activism (die-in anyone?), and in particular by using their very heritage and relationship with other Jews to present themselves to the world as having authority to speak knowledgeably and morally as a different and “better” Jewish person.
Ariel doesn’t explore in any length why these Jews act as they do. If you ask them they will speak nobly of believing in peace, brotherhood among all people, the Jewish imperative to act in certain ways, their true understanding of the nature of things while the “old school” is blinded by their historic allegiances, etc. However, this is pish posh, what is driving them is personal insecurity and a desire not to be perceived negatively by the larger society that surrounds them. They have no greater claim over justice or peace than those with whom they disagree.
Ariel Beery, in his Jerusalem Post op-ed, mentions Daniel Sieradsky who runs Jewschool and Orthodox Anarchist as an example of someone who belongs in this “new Jew” camp and notes that Sieradsky, also known as Mobius, recently exemplified the confused allegiances of the “new Jews” when he decided to hold an event to raise funds for Lebanese victims as well as Israeli victims. Apparently many people don’t support this idea at a time when the war had just concluded and Israel’s north lies in ruins and desperately needs funds and support to rebuild. This is hard for Israel since it will not be receiving the billion dollars from the international community and who knows how much from Iran that Lebanon is in line to receive. Also, Israel will now have to rebuild its arsenal and bring in new defensive anti-rocket, anti-anti-tank, other systems and revamp its intelligence abilities because of possible future wars against the same forces that supplied and try to supply Hizbullah.
Mobius took great umbrage at not receiving support for his project, instead of understanding that people aren’t evil but simply have different priorities at this time, including to those whom they consider part of their nation or co-religionists. He wrote a lengthy rant on Orthodox Anarchist.
Several months ago, Mobius went into a large and successful website and in order to gain votes for the oh-so-important Jewish blog awards, falsely and unjustly attacked Israel for committing war crimes. He was speaking, of course, as the voice of Jewish authority on a website where it seemed many of the visitors were non-Jews.
Ariel Beery’s post linked to the long post by Mobius on his personal Orthodox Anarchist site where he wrote angrily that he is opposed to the Zionist state in its current form and that those who support it turn the world and justice upside down to meet their own horrific objectives of support for this illegitimate Zionist entity. He goes as far as to talk up his own Orthodox credentials to show that he’s a “good” Jew before concluding that halachically (according to Jewish law), Israel has no right to exist in its present form.
No, I’m not a Zionist. I’m a Jew. I’m not going to whitewash this despicable desecration of our inheritance and paint it as awesomely wonderful because of its scientific breakthroughs or its false appearance of democracy.
The more venom you spew in my direction [nobody had spewed venom or even bile], the more I realize it’s true — that Zionists don’t really believe in Torah. Because Zionism is assur by the Torah. Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. It is a Jewish nationalist movement. Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same.
and
So you can take all the photos of “hot chicks” at the Kotel on Tisha B’Av you want [an attack on one of our posters, apparently that he isn't a good Jew]. And you can write all the op-eds in the Jerusalem Post you like [attack on Beery whose article he hadn't yet seen and which was quite gentle in fact], publicly shaming your fellow Jew for not being a blind cheerleader in the Zionist army. And you can celebrate your depravity and curse those [ed. italics mine] who genuinely seek to connect to and serve G-d all you like. Piss on my head and tell me its raining. Stand the definition of justice on its head and smile as you stuff a shit sandwich down my throat.
But as you inch this world ever closer towards apocalypse, just know that I would rather be on the side of G-d and justice than a member of your club. If you want to make me out to be a pariah — if you want to put me in cherem because I actually believe G-d when He says redemption comes “Not through arms nor through strength, but through My spirit” — go right ahead.
Toss me out on my ass if you must. But know that you are throwing aside one of the most devout, committed, whole-hearted, loving Jewish people in the world today. And not because I’m not a good Jew. But because I don’t support the infinitely corrupt and halakhically illegitimate state that will be the undoing of our people.
Mobi commands a large audience on both of his sites and, in my opinion, causes unwarranted harm not only to Israel but to those of us who support it. While he feels comfortable wielding his Machete of Superior Morality ™, in fact it is those of us who do not fit his egregious and heinous descriptions Of Israel and its supporters who are tainted by his constant criticism and calls for a different state of things.
Since he has an audience and he not only attacked a friend but also attacked those of us who support Israel, I decided to respond to his comments. Unsurprisingly, he did not post my comment. Well, just so it won’t be lost in Mobi’s selective filter, I report my (undeniably harsh) response here for your pleasure, dear Jewlicious reader.
I rarely visit this site [Orthodox Anarchist] and now I know why.
The laughable part of this, which really proves the shallowness of your opinions on the topic, is your belief that everyone who supports Israel supports it uncritically or supports the neo-Cons and their position on the Mid-East. Your simplistic, childish view on this issue as about as, well, simplistic and childish as your view on attacking Israel about its struggle to survive in an incredibly hostile environment. You would not be able to live as you do without the “Zionist army,” the “Zionist state” or what they need to do to survive. Sure, you could live in New Jersey as a Jew but if that was what you wanted, presumably that’s where you’d be. Instead, you live off the sacrifice of others even as you criticize them.
You write:
publicly shaming your fellow Jew for not being a blind cheerleader in the Zionist army. And you can celebrate your depravity and curse those who genuinely seek to connect to and serve G-d all you like. Piss on my head and tell me its raining. Stand the definition of justice on its head and smile as you stuff a shit sandwich down my throat.You don’t have the capacity to determine what is justice and what is injustice. You have no tools to judge what is deprived and what is not deprived. You have no idea what God wants although you have the hubris to tell others what he wants. You’re a spoiled anglo tourist in Israel who feels comfortable taking from the “Zionist state” has to offer while vilifying it in terms that service its enemies. Let’s call it shitting where you’re eating – usually a sign of poor manners although in your case it’s also called service to the enemy.
But as you inch this world ever closer towards apocalypse,
Wait, you’re talking to Zionists about this? Zionists?! Are you so blinded by your own rhetoric and “progressive” friends that you don’t understand the society in which you live to this degree? The people inching the world closer to the apocalypse are certainly not those living in the “Zionist entity.” How incredible that you would say this.
just know that I would rather be on the side of G-d and justice than a member of your club.
Um, you’ve spoken to God about this and he told you what he wanted? Funny thing cuz there is a leader in Iran, another in Lebanon and another in Afghanistan who have also had this very same consultation with God. You’re on the same team: “the Zionist entity is a criminal enterprise that must be destroyed.” I guess you must really know what he wants.
And not because I’m not a good Jew. But because I don’t support the infinitely corrupt and halakhically illegitimate state that will be the undoing of our people.
Pay close attention.
Right now there are plenty of very fine Jews who disagree with you both about whether it is a halachically legitimate state, whether it is infinitely corrupt, whether it deserves to exist and in what form, and how it needs to fight for its survival. Some of them, tzaddikim far greater than you, even died in the past several weeks defending their beliefs and their state. It is their memory and upon their surviving family members – parents who have lost their sons; wives who have lost their husbands; children who have been orphaned; friends and family who will never recover – that you continually piss on with your hypocritical views, especially since you broadcast those views loudly and publicly.
Next time I’m in Israel I will say this to your face.




















jewishwhistleblower
9/6/2006
Mobius is a joke. He can’t even clean up his own backyard. For several years he promoted Jewish Renewal and its leadership despite their support for sexual predator and child molester Rabbi Mordechai Gafni. In fact, Mobius’ “Radical Torah” blog still promotes Gafni protector and open marriage activist, Rabbi Arthur Waskow of The Shalom Center.
Now what teshuvah has Waskow and his Renewal friends done for Gafni’s brave victims and supporters who came forward in the past just to be subjected to the most despicable attacks by Waskow and his Renewal colleagues?
Zero.
What changes have been made to protect our community from the next Gafni by these creeps?
None.
They apparently don’t know the meaning of teshuvah. (Hint, it’s not about whitewashing your own culpability.)
And Mobius has the gall to attack the brave people of Israel?
Get off the weed Mobius, stop supporting an illegal Israeli drug industry that is linked with the trafficking of women and terrorists and join the brave army of Israel.
Jerk.
Tom Morrissey
9/6/2006
“. . . what is driving them is personal insecurity and a desire not to be perceived negatively by the larger society that surrounds them”. Dunno about the insecurity part, but I don’t think these views endear Mobius and his ilk to gentile society. If the point is to fit in, this won’t get it done.
As a gentile my own self, I find his internecine acting-out perversely fascinating (a guilty pleasure, to be sure). I’ve got some Jewish friends who are roughly at his end of the spectrum, and I continually wonder what drives them. As I said, gentiles don’t get the anti-Israel stuff.
My pet theory: it’s a form of rebellion against their parents. A sixties-style attack on the moral authority of the older generation. Politics for kids who are sick of the Holocaust and post-Holocaust, and have Israel fatigue. Or who resent their parents’ material success, and embrace lefty politics as revenge. A softcore Jewish version of the Baader-Meinhof mentality.
Too bad Mr. Tough Guy lacked the sack to post your response.
Eric
9/6/2006
What a fag! Not that there’s anything wrong with it!
Jewish Mother
9/6/2006
Cool analysis, Tom Morrissey. Cool thread, TM.
(My own take is: they are put on earth to show everybody what happens if you do without Torah. Color me terrified.)
Oh, and let the law operate. “The law of the land is the law.” People who do crimes should be in prison.
Oh, and as for impressing Gentiles (capital G), just be yourself.
It’s cold without a Talit. Wrap up.
Jewish Mother
9/6/2006
Yes, sometimes evil people seem to follow Torah. So how does a religious group protect itself from that? With common sense and by asking its women when confused. They have rolling pins and frying pans, so watch out. The view from the kitchen is never clouded.
Do you want some soup?
A Lily Among Thorns
9/6/2006
Thanks for posting that. I recently lost a childhood friend in the conflict with Lebanon (he was an Israeli soldier). I want to tell you a story:
Many years ago, a Jewish man in the USSR filed papers to move to Israel. His request was denied, he was labeled a traitor, and the government arranged for him to lose his job.
His oldest son was a very good student at school and was going to receive a medal. However, because of his father’s actions, he was denied the medal. In college, the KGB approached him and attempted to recruit him to spy and report on other Jews. They knew he would be trusted because of his father’s actions. He refused and in retaliation, the government arranged for him to be expelled and he was recruited into the Russian Army. This was during fighting with Afghanistan.
When the Soviet Union was finally collapsing and the borders opened, everyone was going to the US. But this man chose to go to Israel because it had been his father’s dream. This man’s son is the 19-year-old boy that was just killed fighting for Israel.
But Mobius is right. Those people are bad Jews bringing about the end of the world. Justice would have been Jews staying to be persecuted in Russia. Justice would have been Ethiopians staying to starve in Ethiopia. Justice would have been for those Vietnamese refugees to just keep floating in their boats. Justice would have been for those Sudanese refugees to be sent back to be murdered by militias. Justice would have been for every single person rescued after the earthquake in Turkey by Israeli rescue teams (comprised of Israel’s Air Force, by the way) to die.
I left Russia for Israel when I was 4. I don’t know what it’s like to be taunted by my peers for being a Jew thanks to Israel. I got to learn the Torah in school, something forbidden in the USSR. I saw my grandfather vote for the very first time in his life. I am so thankful for everything Israel has given me and millions of others and to say that its existence is “despicable”… who’s really the blind one, Mobius?
Ariel Beery
9/6/2006
Where do I get one of these Machetes of Superior Morality ™? Pretty cool stuff.
themiddle
9/6/2006
At Progressives R Us (TM). Where else?
Btw, Ariel, since I cannot post at your site any more, you will no longer be able enjoy my rejoinders to Mobi et al…
alexbmn
9/6/2006
mad respect, MIddle. Mobius just got served.
Harley
9/7/2006
I guess vitriol and hostility are an appropriate response to someone with whose views you vehemently disagree. I would hope that you, TM, would have chosen to engage in a dialogue, even if you find Mobius’s ideas hateful. You, too, Ariel. You are extremely intelligent men. Is this unfiltered anger the way to address the issues of Jewish nationhood? Is there no tenable position in which a person can feel uncomfortable fully supporting all of Israel’s policies and still wholeheartedly support Israel? For those of us uncertain or uneducated on the nuances of Israel’s policy and the Middle East conflicts, next time, please show me why you invest in your views, instead of painting the issues in black and white.
ariela
9/7/2006
I actually thought moby’s little party was a sweet idea. In the end they raised $1000 and we all know that compared to the damages suffered in northern Israel and compared to the fist fulls of benjamins being given out in Lebanon by Hezbolla and the international community, that cash doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. But its the thought that counts and it was a pretty powerful message, whether you agreed with it or not. Having said that however, this situation has spiralled out of control and I hate to say it but mobius is squarely to blame.
His usual melt down began on August 22nd in this post on Orthodox Anarchist. Here he mocks the spirit of the Chofetz Chaim and Rabbi Soloveitchik and says nasty and hurtful things about a few people. One of those people lost a baby. That baby would have been born on the week of the 22nd. Mobius managed to make that loss be all about him, completely ignoring the sensibilities and feelings of a couple still in mourning over the loss of a baby. He didn’t mention the name of the couple in question, but enough of us know exactly who they are that this qualifies as a particularly heinous form of lashon harah in that it hides behind mere technicalities. I’m sure if Mobius spent a little more time at his vaunted bais midrash and less time obsessing about his non-existent enemies, he’s realize that. And then Mobius goes off and rags on ck saying that he’s impious. Who the fuck is Mobius to make that assessment about anyone? Again, he didn’t mention ck by name but we all knew who he meant and ck was good natured enough about it to out himself. There are many things Mobius doesn’t know about ck. Mobius thinks that ck is one of those people out to get him and quite the opposite is true. He’s had ample opportunity to wreak havoc on Mobius and instead all he does is excuse his behavior and try to gently wield a positive influence. Mobius’s assessment of ck is ridiculous and childish – the immature ramblings of a man looking to blame everyone for his failures while continuously refusing to accept personal responsibility for the patheticness of his life.
And to think these people had nothing to do with the origins of this issue – an article written by Ariel Beery criticizing a stupid fundraiser party. I look at the comments of his cherry picked cheerleader commentators all praising Mobius for his strength of character, I see how he couches his insanity with religious ideals that are less religious and more sanctimonious, self-serving, self-righteous drivel, and I’m sorry but it makes me want to projectile vomit. Why is everyone pussyfooting around this egomaniac? Why are you all mollycoddling him because in deference to his rebellious spirit? Please allow me to be very, very clear. Dan Sieradski is an idiot. I don’t pretend to be religious but I was always taught to be honest.
He’s an idiot with a bully pulpit. His ideas on Judaism and Anarchy demonstrate clearly how he would have benefited a little from staying in college and learning how to write concisely and think logically. If he uses the word “critique” one more time I swear I am going to find him and smash every computer and writing implement within 10 miles. He is an ego maniac fronting like he’s this big selfless guy when really he doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself. He hates ck and he hates Jewlicious because they’ve done cool things and have had opportunities that he feels ought to have been handed to him on a silver platter. Thou shalt not covet, Mobius. Read up about that. He lashed out at one of his truly good friends because he refused to bow down at the alter of Mobius and uncritically accept every one of his idiotic ideas. I say “enough!” Please, let this be the last we hear of Mobius. The worst thing you can do to this little man is ignore him and at this point, what he deserves is the worst thing. Let him make tshuva and beg every one’s forgiveness, then I’ll think about it. But until then, Mobius does not exist for me. I urge you all to do the same thing. In fact, don’t even respond to this comment. Just go about your ordinary newly mobius-free lives.
themiddle
9/7/2006
Harley, there are plenty of times when there is dialogue here and on other sites, and numerous times where I have engaged Mobi and others with similar views in dialogue both on this site as well as on other sites including his site. You’ll note he avoided dialogue by refusing to post the comment in my post twice.
If you see vitriol here, reread the paragraph in bold in my post. What happened here is that we had a war, many Israelis lost their lives and limbs because of their faith in their state, their belief in the necessity of fighting, their trust in the IDF, their Zionism and love for Israel the country and Israel the nation, and because they believed it was the right thing to do. Along comes Mobius, again, to attack the actions not only of Israel and the IDF, but essentially their supporters and fighters as well. He uses his own level of Jewish observance to attempt to earn credibility and moral superiority – as he has in the past – and then proceeds to dismiss the very things for which many of these soldiers fought. The third largest group of killed soldiers came from Orthodox backgrounds, including one who threw himself on a grenade to prevent the deaths of those around him and another who has served for 16 years in one of the IDF’s finest units, having fought bravely on numerous dangerous and clandestine operations, and who died some mere hours after his children cried at the door as he was leaving home for the last time. According to Dan Siedraski, he knows better than they what Israel should or shouldn’t be.
It is upon these people and their loved ones that Mobius is publicly spitting because of his disappointment that he couldn’t raise funds or support for a project. This was a project that places precedence of victims of the side that launched this war on the same plane and, in fact, ahead of people in his own country and nation who are suffering as badly. That project may be right or wrong, it is not for me to say, but what brought about his public position is his inability to accept the lack of interest in his project. So he takes a hissy fit (again) and blames it all on sinister ideas within “Zionism” and the Jewish supporters of Zionism. As he throws the baby with the bathwater, he takes advantage of his public profile to purposely attack the very ideals and ideas that unify Israelis and Israel. By doing so, he also implicates the rest of us who support Israel, and rest assured that it is no mistake that makes him speak publicly and in an ugly way about one of the members of this site who has actually been a good friend to him and who has sought to shield him from my comments.
Mobi is doing this a couple of weeks after soldiers died so that he could have the luxury of living and speaking freely as a Jew in Jerusalem and, I suppose, having access to his “Hizbullah hash.” While he was figuring out that it was bad to buy the enemy’s product when the enemy seeks to destroy you, the very people he criticizes were busting their asses and risking their lives to ensure his security. He deserves the vitriol and more.
The second part of your comment about criticizing Israel doesn’t apply here either. Nobody here believes Israel is beyond criticism or that its leadership is beyond perfect. Scroll down and read the entries from the past few weeks (at the bottom of the home page and every subsequent page, there is a “previous” link which will take you to the last series of posts). You will see posts attacking Israeli leaders, the functioning of the army in this war, open musings as to whether this war should have been fought in this way, disappointment at the numbers of Lebanese civilians who were killed and hope but not complete confidence that the IDF was right in its tactics, societal problems within Israel, discussions of conflicts within Israeli society and more.
To be honest, I feel exasperation and even despair at the goings-on in Israel’s leadership right now. That is not the same as proclaiming that the entire project is conceived in original sin, survives in sin and needs to be flushed down the toilet. If you or others come here and comment about any of these issues critically, harshly or pleasantly, as long as you don’t try to promote antisemitic hate sites or ideas (I’m referring to one person who tried this recently and found himself dismissed), you will receive ample discussion and dialogue. As an example, our friend Tom Morrissey was openly angry at Israel during and after the war and felt perfectly comfortable raising those issues here. He received an open hearing and respectful dialogue, not black and white assertions.
You, Harley, are more than invited to raise ideas, questions, comments that take any position with respect to this conflict and you will receive dialogue. I don’t claim that we can make you certain or educated about the nuances of the conflict, but I sure as heck know that at least I’ll try and hope that I’ll also be educated in the process.
In the case of Mobius, he knows enough and has had enough dialogue over the past couple of years (that I’ve known him online anyway) that he wasn’t floating some trial balloon or seeking nuance here. He was forcefully asserting certain claims that represent a culmination of his negative ideas on Israel and Zionism, and, more important, an attack on the very ideals for which some fine men and one woman gave up their lives just weeks earlier. Please also note that his posts are not shy about attacking others in a fairly ugly way – in this case about a person’s practice of his faith – including this friend who has sought to help and protect him. By doing so he crossed yet another line and should fully expect to be addressed accordingly.
Harley
9/7/2006
TM, Thank you.
laya
9/7/2006
In addition, Harley, I believe dialogue with mobius may be no longer be possible, as it seems he has taken to deleting any comments that don’t agree with him, even respectfully.
Newbie, Leftie, Working on Lashon Hara
9/7/2006
Dear themiddle,
I think you showed remarkable restraint! And I also appreciate your conversation w/Harley at #12. At the beginning of your article I was afraid I was the type of progressive you were concerned about, being a fan of Rabbis for Hum. Rights and Yesh Din. (And R. Waskow’s book, _Seasons of Our Joy_.)
But Mobi’s scatalogical complaints don’t sound like dialogue to me. Nor do they sound like they are accomplishing nearly as much as the IDF officers (dunno how many would call themselves committed Zionists) lodging complaints with the PM about how the war was waged.
Since I am a US left-leaning person, I hear more anti-Israel vitriol than I’d wish; some organizations I just can’t work with. Sometimes I attempt aikido and say, “Of course, not all critics of Israel are anti-Semitic, indeeeeed, however” which sometimes dissolves that fake “I’m not prejudiced, I just…” preface. It’s usually as sincere as “Far be it from me to judge,” and more pernicious.
For anyone’s interest, this article is giving me hope for future dialogue, and fer sher people may disagree with Bradly Burston, but he describes a reality I can live in:
The truth: [Leaving alone the circumstance that most Israelis are native-born, and many trace their roots to Muslim countries from which their ancestors were expelled]
The principle of self-determination and the history of national movements, to say nothing of the development of Zionism and the Palestinian statehood movement, suggest that peoples themselves are empowered to decide if they constitute a people, and if that people legitimately aspires to independence.
(Note the link is to somebody’s blog because that somebody is linked to the orig article in a printing-command mode…)
G-d bless the human and imperfect Zionists for bringing Israel into being. I don’t live there, don’t vote in elections, and haven’t served in the army, so I can only imagine how insulting it is to have the pundits of the world feeling entitled to micromanage one’s own country. Then again I’m a neurotic yenta who cares about Eretz. Yis. so I write to my Congressman and sometimes leave comments with my opinions.
Thank you to the Jewlicious creators!
themiddle
9/8/2006
Newbie, welcome to Jewlicious and thanks for your input.
Btw, you should know that even Mobi considers Richard Silverstein too far to the left.
Richard Silverstein
9/8/2006
Funny, I was just about to say that The Middle & this site are so far out in right field that they’re outa the ballpark.
Are you sure you even want to leave that link to my site in the above comment? After all, it might encourage your readers to have contact with ideas that might make them so defiled they’d have to go to the mikveh to purify themselves afterward!
ck
9/8/2006
Hey Mr. Silverstein,
Welcome to Jewlicious. We don’t censor comments here unless someone’s just being a complete idiot – ie repeating the words “jews suck” 100 times. That we delete. But someone can be a narrow minded, myopic, self-righteous, judgemental, ignorant and presumptuous asshole; such a person would none the less be welcome to comment here without fear of censorship.
But censure? No. That we dispense liberally. We don’t care if people visit your site – we actually believe in a free market place of ideas. We don’t go out of our way to link to your site, loctaed at richardsilvers... (decide for yourselves) because, well, allow me to be politic here… we feel your site’s content is uh… unworthy of consideration. But don’t take my word for it!
Please visit richardsilvers... and decide for yourselves!
themiddle
9/8/2006
Indeed. People should feel comfortable visiting Richard’s site. Gosh, I remember my visits to your site, Richard, and how I decided to end them abruptly after realizing that I was stating serious positions contrary to your consistently staunch anti-Israel point of view and you’d respond by calling my comments “propaganda.” Good debating tactic! Anyway people, Richard would like you to know that his site accepts visitors.
Yehudit
9/8/2006
“Although people keep flattering Mobi for his open stance on free speech on the Internet, he sometimes censors or threatens to ban or bans people on a whim.”
I have noticed at least 2 comments I made which did not get posted. Both were very factual and non-emotional, and contained facts and links to debunk a particular position of the person posting. Orwellian.
Eric
9/8/2006
I just clicked the link and wandered over to Richard’s site and realized that I had stopped by once before by mistake. Same shit, different day.
Newbie, Leftie, Working on Lashon Hara
9/8/2006
Hi again,
welcome to Jewlicious
Thanks!!! And Shabbat Shalom to one and all. (whether early or retroactive)
Thanks also for facilitating my education. I found RS’ site trying to find out who Bradley Burston is. (Mentioned the name here with some hesitation.) Some of the “left” and “right” distinction here gets funny since some of the more pro-settlement leaders seem from here like pretty classic Socialists. (Which is the United States of Confusion, is VERY far “left”.)
FWIW, probably Mr. Siedrasky would not think I’m Jewish (as there was a non-Orth. conversion in my “geography”). Maybe I should come up w/a handle which includes Masorti. Truth in advertising.
Newbie, Leftie, Working on Lashon Hara
9/8/2006
PS: whoah, garbledness: “Which, iN the United…
Will go read Mr. Beery’s article.
Finnish
9/8/2006
Why not just read many sites from right, left, middle, top, bottom, square, triangle, circle, purple, green, whatever? Not a single site tells the absolute truth, the closest you can get is by aggregating the different points of view. Diversity is a plus.
themiddle
9/8/2006
I think we all do. Both ck and I had visited Richard’s site in the past. I’ll read anything if it’s interesting.
Eric
9/8/2006
Why? Because sometimes you’ve heard all the arguments from all sides/perspectives and used your brain to make a conscious decision on where you stand. We are not all eternal children who need to listen to every idiot that comes along trying to reinvent the wheel just to “learn something new”. Sure, there’s always some new fact or tidbit of knowledge you can pick up, but fundamentally, it’s OK to draw your line in the sand. Not everyone with an opinion is “equally” right and “good and evil” are not always subjective terms. Sometimes good people do bad things and other times bad people do good things, but you can judge a person, movement, ideal, etc. based on the sum of all parts. I’m not hear at this site, LGF, or anywhere else for the truth. I’m here to read like-minded people’s ideas that support my beliefs and poopoo on the rest, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
themiddle
9/8/2006
Eric, events change, people change, politics change, the world changes. First, it’s useful to understand those with whom you disagree – what is their perspective and why? Second, we can’t be right all the time and there are times when those opposite us are right. Third, just as my opinion of LGF evolved over time to a more tolerant one, I keep an open mind when I read others’ views. That doesn’t prevent me from arguing when I disagree, but it also keeps me honest in that I have to re-evaluate my position and my beliefs on an ongoing basis.
Eric
9/8/2006
Yes, TM. Some things change but most things stay the same. There is still the attempt to destroy the Jewish State and the Jewish people from various parties around the world that hasn’t changed, but maybe evolved since the inception of Israel and then the Internet (as an example). Whatever rational these haters use now might be delivered through a new medium or using shiny new words they don’t even understand such as Apartheid, Occupation, Racist, Supremacist, yada, yada, yada, but the intent is the same and hasn’t changed anymore than the reason they hate you. Neither has our resolve changed and I don’t need much further discussion or research to know that I want people who hate me: Dead. That’s all, I don’t need to understand their hatred nor do I need them to understand us or me. They need to die, vanish, or sit down and shut the F up, because those are the only options I (and I hope we) are prepared to offer them.
Several decades ago, ignorant, idealistic American Jews embraced the philosophy of Communism, while halfway across the world, Communists were hard at work killing off what was left of the Jewish people and aiming to ruin the chances of a Jewish state. Today, ignorant, idealistic American Jews and (a new phenomenon of) ignorant, idealistic Israeli Jews is attempting to lead us down the wrong path again, this time towards whatever mantra be it Post or Anti-Zionism, Anarchy, Socialism, or simply ignoring and whitewashing Fundamentalist Islam and its aims, so yes, some things may change, but most stay the same. I’d like to tell these Jews and the people who appreciate them for their “Moral High Ground” that they are a detriment to our future and they they need to get the hell out of the way. Giving their faulty ideas another chance or even attention for that matter is helping no one except our enemies.
ramon marcos
9/8/2006
And just when things were getting a little slow at Jewlicious…
themiddle
9/8/2006
Actually, by my measure we experienced a bump of almost 25%-30% during the war and are now still about 10-15% ahead in our traffic than we were 2 months ago.
Chaim
9/10/2006
Eric,
Please don’t say the word “fag.” It really does piss some of us off…
Eric
9/11/2006
It was a joke Chaim, hence the Seinfeld reference. But since this funny slur from my childhood has been co-opted by gay groups in the last decade or so, rendering it useless on the playground, I thought I’d bring it up in its old form, much to the chagrin of those easily offended. So for you, I’ll stop using it on this blog, but I will miss it, and apply it to my gay and/or nerdy friends only, from now on.
Chaim
9/11/2006
Eric,
It has been coopted by gay groups? Huh? Conrary to what you think, it is not a “funny slur.” I had that word hurled at me as homophobes beat the crap out of me. You’ll miss it? Like missing the n-word? What is wrong with some people…
themiddle
1/20/2009
Gosh, I almost forgot you existed.