i realize this was a while ago but you responded to this comment:

comment = “if Israel’s such a great country, then why do people have to pay us to go visit it?”

your response = And why are so many Israeli’s trying to, and getting, out? And it ain’t the grass is greener thang, because I don’t see the same thing occuring in Canada.

umm, i don’t know what you’re talking about. the first point (which was written by someone else) about paying to visit a country makes no sense. however, you’re comment about israelis leaving for other countries is also non accurate. the fact some israelis leave doesn’t mean the country has a defect. people have a variety of reasons for leaving a country. your proof of this not happening was canada. there you are incorrect: abcnews.go.com...
thousands of canadians leave for the united states. that doesn’t mean that canada is a bad place to leave or the united states is better (the same article talks about americans moving to canada!) it simply shows personal choice.

As for why you have it, ask your family.

You can change, or add, names to your name. Especially – don’t throw rocks – when you get married. That’s true. Ask a rabbi.

Names matter, names matter.

Tom Morrissey: Eroticism?

I think we have to watch out for the Grouch Marx principle. You know, disliking what is available. Just because it’s available.

Everybody posting on a site like this would be happy with a fellow Jew, or why would they be posting on a site like this? Know yourselves.

Anybody who can like the name “Jewlicious” could put up with a spouse and baby, which takes flexibility.

Anybody who wishes they were married should be, could be and will be. I have noticed that when people truly decide this marrying thing really today’s to-do thing, bingo! it happens.

The ONE thing that will torpedo marrying is lashon ha ra, loose tongue, gossipy talking.

That’s why the bride DOES and does not SAY. She walks around the groom seven tiimes, saying nothing. That’s the most important part of the service, imho.

You are adorable.

Thanks, CK.

Balaam’s Donkey: That Arafat scarf thing, with the map of Israel in his middle head fold, is absolutely true. You can find documentation of that anywhere if you look around. He spent an hour every morning getting it exactly right.

We have to watch out for two things, quite separately. One is racial self-hatred. The other is a terror of the limitations of domesticity. A little realism would solve both.

We have to watch out for spurious associations and the fallacy of the omitted middle (GM, please help with this.)

1) our forebears were proud Jews and religious.
2) our forebears lived domestically, married, committed, with very defined marital and social roles.
3) our forebears got pulverized in the Holocaust
4) OK. Let’s learn a (spurious) associative lesson: in order not to get pulverized, let’s not make mistakes 1) and 2)!

FALLACY alert! That’s not why they were pulverized!

Don’t ask my why they were.

But Phoebe–and everyone else–should be aware by now that everyone’s going nuts over this population issue. We are of dwindling numbers, and I can’t throw a stone on the UWS (and believe me, I’m tempted to) without hitting someone who thinks it’s my fault for turning down early marriage and procreation opportunities. So it doesn’t surprise me that the “it’s all up to you” approach has shifted target to the birthright age group.

Sigh. There’s so much to say about these subjects. My brain hurts.

You’re a pretty bitter ex-Jewish professional.

Serves you right, working for USY and Hillel.

Uh huh. Pretty much sums up my 9 years working for USY, Hillel and CJA. Process goes something like this:

1) Rich person’s son/dtr marries outside the faith.
2) Rich person’s guilt is assuaged by donating money to a program that will “stem the tide of intermarriage”.
3) Bunch of secular Jewish professionals jump for joy- because the new funding allows them to upgrade their computers, which allows them to surf sites such as monster.com with greater efficiency – and do whatever rich person tells them to.

themiddle…we’d be better off letting things get worse instead of better…let Judaism “rise or fall” based on it’s merit. And if things get really, really bad, we can sleep soundly knowing their are Jews in Boro Park, Outremont, and Mea Shearim who get “it”.

That having been said, I think the real point of phoebe’s post is not about birthright, per se, about about the American Jewish community’s attitudes towards intermarriage at large.

The really provocative statement she made that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle is basically that short of connecting to an orthodox community or living in Israel, you should not expect your kids, or their kids to want to marry Jews, but rather, you should expect them to be a part of the society you raised them in, which is simply the mosiac that is America.

Phoebe is free to chime in if I have misunderstood.

The post is a fairly aggressive attack on Birthright in a couple of ways. First, it makes it sound as if the entire visit is replete with pressure to couple with other Jews and as if this is a primary emphasis of the tour.

Second, it twists 180 degrees what is a generous gift of a free trip into some sort of manipulative trick necessary to bring unsuspecting students to a place that they would and should otherwise have little reason to visit.

I don’t know whether it’s amusing or sad to see Jewlicious, where we have always been supportive of Birthright – and rightfully so – become the source of this type of petulant and dispiriting critique of the program. I think of the exceptional resources this program requires, the generous time and money contributed by those who wish to see it succeed, the impact it has had in bringing to Israel a generation of young Jews and I am simply astounded to read this attack. OH MY GOD, THEY SENT US TO PARTY AT A CLUB WITH OTHER YOUNG JEWS!

Clearly there is some confusion. For the record – the sole purpose of bri is not jewish breeding. It’s about a strong and vibrant Jewish connection via Israel. That often, but not always, leads to marrying a Jew.

This is how I imagine Birthright got set up, using the world’s oldest & most successful motivation device: bribery. Don’t knock it. It’s been working in business & personal relations for untold millennia. Now as Dave notes, the motivation behind this movement may have been a piece of statistical correlation with intermarriage that may indeed Not have been the determinate of the desired action. (I’d have to see the survey, but here again ‘correlation is not causation’ is a by word to consider). This is to say that there are probably a multiple number of reasons why people marry in the faith, traveling to Israel was just an ‘adjunct’ common denominator I suspect. We can agree a fortunate one in most respects too, I’ll add.

Phoebe makes some excellent points in her post & reply as do Esther & others. If it was all about the babies, they really should pair people up as soon as practically possible and give away free hotel rooms with well stocked wine bars included. We’d almost like to imagine that this would be slightly more successful. But other than promoting general bacchanalia, we’ve got to start somewhere. Bribery is not a bad place. It will work, even if just around the edges of great & complex issues. We just have to find the right incentives & motivations.

But love & mating are very complex matters in an advanced age. Who IM’s who& when? Is that better than a phone call if it’s done several times a day? A week? And that’s just with the communication Devices, right?

Phoebe’s point of alienation is one that should be taken seriously. It’s a nagging one of poor communications within the community in general that I dearly hope will be addressed by a new generation of writers. That’s where the art comes in. But they’re broke. We still need to be able to fund programming via some very rich not so Jewish secular Jews. This also speaks to a real need for better, wider more diverse sort of programming for JCC’s etc. Again, it is ever thus.

Me, I think like a scientist. You want more babies, we need more love. It’s very hard to discriminate in love, and there’s the rub.

Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’

I am so fed up of hearing about trying to reach out to Jewish people and get them interested in Judaism. Look, they are adults or semi-adults. If either 1) we are doing a bad job of “selling” them on Judaism
or 2) they don’t really want to participate
the Leave them alone. Screw ‘em!
I can assure you that there are millions of Non-Jews out there who would be interested in becoming Jewish, but we’re not open enough or brave enough to Welcome them.
Or if we told them what Judaism is really all about.
Gee, gosh, maybe we’re afraid of getting swamped by them. Guess they might dilute the old Yiddish heimland or something, lol !
And gosh, gee whiz, most of those are brown, or yellow, or black and live in the 3rd world ! I guess we’re too racist to be able to cope. Some of us unfortunately think that those people just want to move to Israel and get perks. I am sorry that some of us are so cynical.
We have a great spiritual “product” but we drown it in Yiddish culture/ Sephardic culture/ pop culture, to the point where it is irrecognizable for what it is- a religious faith for crying out loud ! A Universal faith. A world religion. Something that can speak to all humanity. Instead we’re hiding this precious jewel under a barrel !
And it is a wonderful Spiritual heritage !
Available to All Mankind ! If we have the courage in believing in Judaism as a faith and Acting in Consequence, we can even “win” the numbers game.

Sorry, I am sounding so disillusioned. I am hoping to get someone’s attention.