To take one local example: Justice Harlan, heroically dissenting in 1896 from the Supreme Court’s endorsement of segregation, also wrote: “There is a race so different from our own that we do not permit those belonging to it to become citizens of the United States. Persons belonging to it are, with few exceptions, absolutely excluded from our country. I allude to the Chinese race.”

Of course, no people has suffered more that Jews from being consigned to the status of Other.

Jewish Mother’s rather passive view that nothing can be done with the Arabs (Jordan? Egypt?) amounts to an endorsement of a status quo that Israelis and their leaders, in substantial and growing numbers, find unacceptable.

Barry, I agree canards like Arafat’s aren’t to be ignored. But arguments about the past have dominated the debate on both sides, and with what result? We can agree with the British lefties who stack the deck one way, or Middle who comes close to stacking it the other, pronouncing who was right and wrong or moral and immoral or good and bad two-plus generations ago. This is a prescription for stalement.

Barry’s right, this is not how disputes get resolved. I also think this amounts to fighting the PR war on pro-Palestinian terms. If we spend our time arguing over Israel’s right to exist and its actions in 1948, we lend credence to Israel’s enemies. I’ll go out on a limb and speculate that young US Jews and American Jews generally find this dynamic enervating. Arguments about the past usually are. They feed a sense of endlessness and stasis and estrangement.

So, Jewish Mother: do we just run in place? Is that satisfactory?

Another intelligent, well-meaning voice. “Together” is not a word used by people who like things “not together”. Also, there is no “out,” because, from their point of view, everything is fine! The Niagras of money are flowing in normally, the leadership is in place, the masses are busily occupied being masses, and it’s a beautiful morning. What’s the problem? Is there any tea left?

The facts *do* matter, and it feels silly to have to point that out. Sure, a bunch of stuff happened decades ago, but no matter who did what to whom, both sides are in deep and have to figure a way out together. I just don’t see what Israel needs to take equal responsibility for the fallout for the lies that were told (and perpetuated) by its enemies.

There are people who loathe social change, regard it as change for the worse, and are loyal to things as they have always been. Who are not interested in what you mean by peace or prosperity. They are interested social arrangements that have worked for them up to now, and which they know cannot endure tinkering or alteration, without being lost forever. I side with you. But I can see that they are far more realistic than you. I wish nobody any ill, respect everybody, and wish everybody could be happy. But my wishes do not change anything. Reality does not bow to my wishes – or yours or Tom Morrissey’s or anybody else’s. I waxed a little irritated because the same nonsense has failed so many times before. Please Googgle “greenhouses + Gaza” and look at the money some nice Jew wasted purchasing them, so other people could have jobs, and do business. Nothing left of the greenhouses but some torn plastic flapping in the desert wind. Not everybody thinks the same. It’s a guy thing. A guy of their kind, thing. “Endless conflict”. Don’t you realize some people have a use for that? It provides focus and unity. It is a test of manhood for them, and it has deep religious significance also.

Froylein, speak to it, thou art a scholar. Have you read EARLY European history? Nobody does much these days. Me either.

Let us look INTO these words. INSIDE them.
- There is no “terms” – Only the thoroughly, militarily, defeated talk about terms. “Terms” is a nonsense word. There are no “terms” in the other side’s thinking.
- There is no “they” – who’s that? There are an infinity of shifting microdivisions.
- There is no “acceptable” – Accept something? As in, do business? Not everybody wants to do business! Especially not with YOU. Actually, business is not the mentality, with anybody at all.

Tom Morrissey, you mean well, but these words are just air. Your word “my” is curious. Just saying. With respect.

But yes, I’ve read both of the reviews you mentioned and they seem to agree that he has approached the conflict fairly objectively.

sabbah.biz/mt/...

If the Arabs had thought they were a “defeated nation” they would have agreed to the Partition Plan and they would not have attacked. They didn’t just attack, they made public speeches and broadcast to their population that they were going to clobber the Jews.

On their end, the Jews were fighting for their lives and believed that they had to win or else die. They were far from confident, which proves that the public perception, the media and the leadership were all sending signals that reveal an opposite perception of reality that what Ben Ami is indicating 55 years later. He’s saying what he’s saying partly on the basis of the work done by Morris and Shlaim, but there are scholars who disagree with their conclusions and more to the point, neither one of them has had much if any access to Arab archives. As I understand things, Arab archives are not being made available to scholars in general.

Now. Your point?

SHLOMO BEN-AMI: In 1948, what was born was a state, but also original superpower in many ways. We have prevailed over the invading Arab armies and the local population, which was practically evicted from Palestine, from the state of Israel, from what became the state of Israel, and this is how the refugee problem was born. Interestingly, the Arabs in 1948 lost a war that was, as far as they were concerned, lost already in 1936-1939, because they have fought against the British mandate and the Israeli or the Jewish Yishuv, the Jewish pre-state, and they were defeated then, so they came to the hour of trial in 1948 already as a defeated nation. That is, the War of 1948 was won already in 1936, and they had no chance to win the war in 1948. They were already a defeated nation when they faced the Israeli superpower that was emerging in that year.

You’re truly special, thank you for your last post.

The fact that you don’t realize you’re slighting working class people by equating the workers of the world with dirty commies is a lasting monument to your “uniqueness”. And for the record, the day isn’t a glorification of any of the things you mentioned above; if it is a glorification of anything, it is of the advances won for the rights of workers by labor movements the world over. You can thank those “dirty commies” for the 8 hour work day later.

Your grasp of Marxism and of Marxist critique of political economy is piss-poor at best. This is evidenced not only in your positively silly rant (In which you ironically make a number of Marxist arguments); but also in your false labeling of figures like Obama, Clinton, Soros, and Huffington as Marxists. You throw around the label Marxist in the pejorative having zero clue what Marxism IS. Educate yourself, Seriously.

Ramon Marcos,

Snooze? Did I make a fundamentally false assertion in recognizing the US and EU’s firm (some say unwavering) support of Israel? Or was it just a boring assertion, hence the narcoleptic fit?

And what is wrong with the generalization “Average Pro-Israel Voice”? It’s the voice I hear in Shul, at Israel related events, on the internets, privately in conversation, etc. I’m open to hear your suggestions for improvement. Lord knows I don’t wish to lose my credibility….