As written earlier on this page, the proposed law was directed against the more and more unpopular muslim community in Denmark, who demonstrated in favor of the taliban after 9-11, supports groups like Hizb-ut-Tahir (who (in)famously handed out flyers in Copenhagen, demanding the killing of all jews in Denmark) and whats to limit free speech (as in the debate about the so called “muhammed drawings”).. At the same time, many muslims dont work, are on wellfare, and dont participate in society (especially their women), where as most other groups of immigratant get fairly well intigrated. (Some might think im generalising, and I do to a certain extent, but Im trying to keep this comment as short as possible).
Secondly, I dont think the bill was ever supposed to be passed, but was to be seen as more of a provocation towards muslims from the far right. It ended up also (as evidently on these pages) also being a provocation towards the jewish community in Denmark. Jews in Denmark are usually well intigrated, having been here in generations, most are private (though not secretive) about their beliefs (like most danes).. And Denmark being a fairly relaxed country when it comes to religion and religious traditions (most danes are not even religious like myself), we dont really understand or respect the importance of circumsision for jews and muslims.

That said. Being a jew i Denmark is getting harder and harder (as the media here are focusing more and more on).. Racist attacks and slurs from the growing muslim communities. The old beautiful synagoge in Copenhagen has to have guards now. The jewish School looks like a fortress now, with its high walls, guards and policeprotection outside. Jews make sure not to wear jewish clothing or religous symbols, and I saw an anonymous jewish teacher, who works at a public school in Copenhagen, telling how he would newer dare to say to his students (60% muslim. The school was in one of the muslim ghettos in Copenhagen)he is jewis, and at resess, he would see the kids playing “kill the jews”.

For many years Denmark has played the apeasement stategy towards muslims here in this country, and since the jews here are quiet and “danish”, we never really thought of them having a problem. Radical islam is now a real problem here, even though large part of the political and cultural elite here, refuses to recognize the problem. With terrible concequenses for not only jews, but certainly also moderate muslims as well.

As it is, Denmark strongly supports the jewish community’s right to live in acordance with their traditions and values, though no religious tradition or custom is above the danish constitution. In Denmark, jews understands and embrace this, having given us many pillars of society (like former transport minister Arne Melchior, writer/journalist Dan Rachli and many more), giving back to the greater good of our community and hopefully enjoying the priveliges of our society as well.We also support the independence of Israel, though, as a friend, we take the liberty to say, when we dont agree with Israel (and when we support Israel)
Others dont understand, that here, religion will never (and I strongly support this) stand above the law. This is the way it is supposed to be.

We support everybodys right to follow their beliefs, sexual preferances and political views. The law is here to protect each group from each other, and as such, everybody can’t get everything they want. Thats democracy.

Right keep the world burning with your religious/cultural crap/

You are damn right there should be a law against circumcision,.
make that at 212 – then let people get circom..etc if they want to. If you can’t wait, move to another country.

Bobie

As for a social decline, I understand how many are attracted to what they perceive a social, amiable environment, but my experience is that actual social skills (aka “soft skills”) are rather low there. Throwing a holiday dinner every now and then is not enough to show sufficient social skills. There seems to be too much emphasis put on the “show”. In addition, many have got poor manners.

2) The current “circle the wagons” mentality in the Charedi world – which has probably affected most of your Chassidish friends – is a transient reaction to the Holocaust and the virulent anti-religious agenda that still lingers here in Israel.

It really is more of a political than a religious phenomenon. And it is starting to fall apart already.

And again, it does not encompass all of Torah-true Judaism.

Try meeting some young folks from Yeshiva University or Bar-Ilan University – or the many Orthodox American Jews who have studied at ivy-league colleges.

… what exactly do you mean by your friends being in “social” decline? Many people are drawn to Orthodoxy precisely because of the sense of community. I assume your are referring to the more stifling aspects of modern Charedi culture?

Anyway, as to Muffti’s question: here’s an excerpt from the (US) Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, passed by Congress after the Supreme Court had ruled that “neutral” legislation free from discriminatory intent may impose constitutionally permissible burdens on religious practice:

IN GENERAL.—Government shall not substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, except as provided in subsection (b).
EXCEPTION.—Government may substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion only if it determines that application of the burden to the person—
is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
JUDICIAL RELIEF.—A person whose religious exercise has been burdened in violation of this section may assert that violation as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain appropriate relief against a government. Standing to assert a claim or defense under this section shall be governed by the general rules of standing under article III of the Constitution.

The key phrase here is “compelling governmental interest”, a substantially higher threshold than the deferential “rational basis” test typically employed by US courts in weighing the constitutionality of legislation.

Denmark, get your act together.

We’ve got great Asian ingredients here, too, but I live in a remote place, where you’ve only got limited choices. So I do most of my grocery shopping before driving home from work and improvise if I don’t have a certain ingredient. Frozen, pre-sliced veggies sell at about the same price as fresh ones here, so I keep a little supply of frozen broccoli, mushrooms, bell peppers etc. in the freezer for when I need to hurry or have got no fresh stuff at hand.

Maybe the kids would enjoy the stir-fry more if they could give you a hand. According to my expriences, kids will eat about anything if they have prepared it themselves.

But, like Hirsch, I don’t see Orthodoxy in any way lacking for not adopting critical approaches. Your remark about Orthodoxy “outliving” itself is particularly ironic considering that the term “outliving themselves” better describes the various Reform movements – deeply linked with the academic approach to Judaism – that claimed to be “improving” the dinosaur of covenantal Judaism.

It is they whom Torah Judaism has “outlived”.

2) I tried desperately to get my kids into various stir-fry type dishes, unfortunately it didn’t catch on. I loved cooking that type of food when I was younger, and it is very easy and quick when you have to feed a family.

Here in Israel I can get everything from tamarind paste to bottled thai chili sauce with excellent Rabbinical supervision. We also have pretty good locally-made ramen noodles, and imported cellophane noodles. The markets have pre-sliced veggies for those who have the $$$.

Maybe I should try again now that they’re older.

Oh, they sure are crazy. And often, it’s the same whackos that are anti-circ that are anti-FGM. You know why people hate FGM? Because they hate Islam and they hate Allah. They are haters who just hate for no reason. Hate hate hate hate.

BTW, an “Asian” recipe you might enjoy:
Heat about three to four large tablespoonfuls [TS] of chunky peanut butter with three TS soy sauce, one TS sweet chili sauce (or use regular chili sauce and some sweetener / sugar), 2 finely chopped garlic cloves, 1 generous TS of your fav masala / curry mix, 5 TS oil, a handful of sesame seeds or non-salted peanuts. Put aside. Prepare wok noodles (whatever your preference; I mostly use those you just need to soak in boiling water for a few minutes), fried meat stripes (e.g. chicken breast filet; I marinate it with lemongrass and ginger, but you need not season it), broccoli in bite-size chunks (briefly boiled in salted water till just about done; drain). Mix all with sauce. 1 lb of each noodles and meat and 1/2 lb of broccoli should get you about 8 huge servings.

The question that REALLY gets the fur flying is whether circumcision is demonstrably *harmful*.

That’s the one that brings the whacko activists out of the woodwork – and also reveals any latent perceptions of Jews as abnormal/other.

There already IS substance to my beliefs – totally independent of, and unaffected by, pseudo-scientific research or academic versions of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

Which is why is am “not concerned about” these researches: they are of little concern, beyond piquant historical anecdotes. They do not define lived Judaism or impact it in any real way.

Again: you are invited to connect with real, lived Judaism. And I will respect statements made from that lived experience – much more than second-hand quotes of (often axe-grinding) academic opinion about what Judaism is conjectured to have been, or to be.

There already IS substance to my beliefs – totally independent of, and unaffected by, pseudo-scientific research or academic versions of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

Which is why is am “not concerned about” these researches: they are of little concern, beyond piquant historical anecdotes. They do not define lived Judaism or impact it in any real way.

Why did the “reputable” Jewish historian omit the direct Talmudic reference to the practice of breaking plates?

sighhhhhhhh……

I am not going to go through your list of names – which resembles similar echo-chamber arguments-by-authority used by everyone from climate-change crazies to Palestinian apologists. Talk about not thinking outside the box!

Nor do I have to prove that much of the Enlightenment/post-Enlightenment academic study of Judaism was driven by the Reform movement’s agenda of nose-jobbing Judaism, and explaining away those “primitive” bits that didn’t fit the assimilationist program of the time. This bias is common knowledge.

We are still struggling in Israel with revisionist historians and archaeologists who pursue their anti-traditional agendas despite mounting factual evidence that buries their pet theories.

Judaism is unique in being very open to the layperson. You can walk into a shul (which literally means “school”) and take the books of the shelf. Why don’t you do that – instead of getting your Judaism through an academic filter?

Judaism is also unique in being biased towards action (mitzvot)and communal experience. That is, Judaism is something you live and do, not something you dissect. Again – why not try it?

I would be much more respectful of a post/opinion/argument stemming from personal lived experience than I would be of claims based on academic study of Judaism.

If you want to keep Muslims from overrunning your country, stop giving them visas and welfare, and stop accommodating polygamy and sharia law. And take back as much of your sovereignty from Brussels as you can – while you still can.

(and find some other source of cheap labor to make your heavily socialist economy work – oops!)

But this kind of “back door” legislation is wimpy and ineffective – like the French headscarf ban. Give me a break.