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	<title>Comments on: One of those moments that make you speechless</title>
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		<title>By: Chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1101594</link>
		<dc:creator>Chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Baruch Dyan Emet

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baruch Dyan Emet</p>
<p><a href="http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7876917&#038;version=3&#038;locale=EN-US&#038;layoutCode=TSTY&#038;pageId=3.2.1" rel="nofollow"></a><a href='http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7876917&#038;version=3&#038;locale=EN-US&#038;layoutCode=TSTY&#038;pageId=3.2.1'>myfoxdc.com/my...</a></p>
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		<title>By: chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1094285</link>
		<dc:creator>chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1094285</guid>
		<description>Doctors call &quot;time of death&quot; every day in emergency room across this country and on our battefields abroad.  

To let Rabbis micro-manage Doctors is dangerous to both the individual patient and entire health-care system.

This community is trying to make some kind of political grand-stand with this maneuveur and they are probably hoping for a large cash settlement offer from the Hospital to go away.

They are asking for medical testing but when it comes to performing autoposies on their own victims of Shaken-Baby Syndrome, they want nothing to do with medical testing.

The idea behind giving money to Americans who pay no federal taxes is that they will then get on their feet and pay back into the system.  

I make no attempt  at hiding my distain for Hasidic and Ultra-Orthodox &quot;Americans&quot;.  I think  they will gladly take  from the system but then  will always find an ideological excuse not to pay back into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doctors call &#8220;time of death&#8221; every day in emergency room across this country and on our battefields abroad.  </p>
<p>To let Rabbis micro-manage Doctors is dangerous to both the individual patient and entire health-care system.</p>
<p>This community is trying to make some kind of political grand-stand with this maneuveur and they are probably hoping for a large cash settlement offer from the Hospital to go away.</p>
<p>They are asking for medical testing but when it comes to performing autoposies on their own victims of Shaken-Baby Syndrome, they want nothing to do with medical testing.</p>
<p>The idea behind giving money to Americans who pay no federal taxes is that they will then get on their feet and pay back into the system.  </p>
<p>I make no attempt  at hiding my distain for Hasidic and Ultra-Orthodox &#8220;Americans&#8221;.  I think  they will gladly take  from the system but then  will always find an ideological excuse not to pay back into it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093803</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093803</guid>
		<description>Chutzpah:
America just elected a guy who is going to give money to the 40-50 percent of Americans that pay no federal taxes at all. He also intends to enlarge that number.

Which makes your selective umbrage at haredi &quot;corner-cutting&quot; all the more revealing.

Sorry folks - anyone who has followed the ethical/policy debate around end-of-life issues knows how stupid/dangerous it is to argue based on costs.

The point is that the treatment is futile, and no longer has medical merit.

That&#039;s all that needs to be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chutzpah:<br />
America just elected a guy who is going to give money to the 40-50 percent of Americans that pay no federal taxes at all. He also intends to enlarge that number.</p>
<p>Which makes your selective umbrage at haredi &#8220;corner-cutting&#8221; all the more revealing.</p>
<p>Sorry folks &#8211; anyone who has followed the ethical/policy debate around end-of-life issues knows how stupid/dangerous it is to argue based on costs.</p>
<p>The point is that the treatment is futile, and no longer has medical merit.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s all that needs to be said.</p>
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		<title>By: DK</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093742</link>
		<dc:creator>DK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093742</guid>
		<description>I heard this is a Bobov chassidic family. Is that true?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard this is a Bobov chassidic family. Is that true?</p>
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		<title>By: Chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093497</link>
		<dc:creator>Chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093497</guid>
		<description>We are talking about a community that has a culture of cutting corners on taxes because they believe their tax money is spent on things which go against their ideology, then they have the chutzpah to ask tax dollars to support something like this?  They should audit every family in the community, what they collect in unpaid taxes can cover the boy&#039;s end-of-life medical services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are talking about a community that has a culture of cutting corners on taxes because they believe their tax money is spent on things which go against their ideology, then they have the chutzpah to ask tax dollars to support something like this?  They should audit every family in the community, what they collect in unpaid taxes can cover the boy&#8217;s end-of-life medical services.</p>
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		<title>By: ol cranky</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093465</link>
		<dc:creator>ol cranky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093465</guid>
		<description>Ben-David: in cases of medical futility (actually &lt;i&gt;especially&lt;/i&gt; in cases of medical futility such as this) the cost of care and waste of healthcare resources have to be considered.  Every resource used to maintain an illusion that this boy&#039;s heart and lungs are supporting his life (instead of equipment providing an illusion of living) is a resource not used to maintain the health and well being of another.  One must not ignore that this unnecessary and futile use of healthcare resources could potential divert life saving measures for one or more others.  That is truly a shunda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben-David: in cases of medical futility (actually <i>especially</i> in cases of medical futility such as this) the cost of care and waste of healthcare resources have to be considered.  Every resource used to maintain an illusion that this boy&#8217;s heart and lungs are supporting his life (instead of equipment providing an illusion of living) is a resource not used to maintain the health and well being of another.  One must not ignore that this unnecessary and futile use of healthcare resources could potential divert life saving measures for one or more others.  That is truly a shunda.</p>
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		<title>By: Chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093252</link>
		<dc:creator>Chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093252</guid>
		<description>Cost is the over-riding factor in all decisions by even the most pious.  Like I said, offer to let them pay for it and see how fast they say to disconnect the services.  

And this case does not involve active medical euthanasia, it involves a decomposing body which belongs in the  ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cost is the over-riding factor in all decisions by even the most pious.  Like I said, offer to let them pay for it and see how fast they say to disconnect the services.  </p>
<p>And this case does not involve active medical euthanasia, it involves a decomposing body which belongs in the  ground.</p>
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		<title>By: Chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1093247</link>
		<dc:creator>Chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1093247</guid>
		<description>The Orthodox are entitled to their opinion and they are absolutely entitled to take every measure possible to provide services to their child, IF they can affored to pay for those services privately.

Forcing Medicaid to pay the Hospital less than what it costs it to keep the child there offends my rights as a taxpayer as much as using tax dollars to fund abortions offends pro-lifers.

In a society that is on the brink of bankruptcy, the cost to the many must outweigh the ideology of the few.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Orthodox are entitled to their opinion and they are absolutely entitled to take every measure possible to provide services to their child, IF they can affored to pay for those services privately.</p>
<p>Forcing Medicaid to pay the Hospital less than what it costs it to keep the child there offends my rights as a taxpayer as much as using tax dollars to fund abortions offends pro-lifers.</p>
<p>In a society that is on the brink of bankruptcy, the cost to the many must outweigh the ideology of the few.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben-David</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092971</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben-David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092971</guid>
		<description>Chutzpah: arguing end-of-life issues based on costs is not just flippant, it&#039;s the chilling shadow that keeps many thinking people fearful of doctors taking on end-of-life decisions.

Whenever active medical euthanasia has been authorized, there inevitably are abuses of the system.

You obviously haven&#039;t thought this issue out in your rush to make a snarky anti-Orthodox comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chutzpah: arguing end-of-life issues based on costs is not just flippant, it&#8217;s the chilling shadow that keeps many thinking people fearful of doctors taking on end-of-life decisions.</p>
<p>Whenever active medical euthanasia has been authorized, there inevitably are abuses of the system.</p>
<p>You obviously haven&#8217;t thought this issue out in your rush to make a snarky anti-Orthodox comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Morrissey</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092470</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Morrissey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092470</guid>
		<description>There is a silver lining here, chutzpah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a silver lining here, chutzpah.</p>
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		<title>By: chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092252</link>
		<dc:creator>chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092252</guid>
		<description>Who is paying Zuckerman&#039;s fees? The only people that benefit in a case like this are the fucking lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is paying Zuckerman&#8217;s fees? The only people that benefit in a case like this are the fucking lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: chutzpah</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092251</link>
		<dc:creator>chutzpah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092251</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the financial drain  on the hospital is justified here.  If they want to keep him there, tell them to pay out of pocket for his medical expenses or have &quot;the community&quot; cover those costs...they&#039;d come up with a heter quite quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the financial drain  on the hospital is justified here.  If they want to keep him there, tell them to pay out of pocket for his medical expenses or have &#8220;the community&#8221; cover those costs&#8230;they&#8217;d come up with a heter quite quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: froylein</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092223</link>
		<dc:creator>froylein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092223</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The dispute wound up in court Sunday, when the family asked a federal judge to block the hospital from doing any further tests for brain activity.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;The hospital responded by asking a District of Columbia Superior Court judge for permission to discontinue treatment.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ve understood those lines as the family taking the hospital to court (asking for stopping brain examinations that would verify Motl&#039;s state, thus maintaining the status quo) and the hospital responding in kind. 

I do understand that the family&#039;s got other kids to care for, still, the hospital&#039;s annotation that the parents hadn&#039;t visited Motl since July struck me as strange, no matter how many family members or neighbours are around. (And knowing how cautious hospitals over there are about public statements, particularly when there might be a breach of data or patient privacy guidelines, I&#039;m willing to believe there must be something to the claim).

I hope it became clear enough that the family does have my sympathies and that I will refrain from weighing in when life-support should be stopped; I know the pros and cons on that issue from various perspectives, and all I can say is that I would never want to be in a situation where I have to take such a decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The dispute wound up in court Sunday, when the family asked a federal judge to block the hospital from doing any further tests for brain activity.</i></p>
<p><i>The hospital responded by asking a District of Columbia Superior Court judge for permission to discontinue treatment.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve understood those lines as the family taking the hospital to court (asking for stopping brain examinations that would verify Motl&#8217;s state, thus maintaining the status quo) and the hospital responding in kind. </p>
<p>I do understand that the family&#8217;s got other kids to care for, still, the hospital&#8217;s annotation that the parents hadn&#8217;t visited Motl since July struck me as strange, no matter how many family members or neighbours are around. (And knowing how cautious hospitals over there are about public statements, particularly when there might be a breach of data or patient privacy guidelines, I&#8217;m willing to believe there must be something to the claim).</p>
<p>I hope it became clear enough that the family does have my sympathies and that I will refrain from weighing in when life-support should be stopped; I know the pros and cons on that issue from various perspectives, and all I can say is that I would never want to be in a situation where I have to take such a decision.</p>
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		<title>By: ol cranky</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092193</link>
		<dc:creator>ol cranky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092193</guid>
		<description>With all due respect Yaakov, the lungs aren&#039;t functioning with support the ventilator is doing the breathing.  Using this strict adherence to halacha, you could argue that even after the heart stops beating on its own the boy&#039;s chest should be cracked to manually make the heart beat since that is, essentially what is being done to make it appear as though his lungs are still functioning. The Chasidic interpretation of halacha in this case isn&#039;t following G-d&#039;s will, it&#039;s overriding it.  Halacha mandates necessary and appropriate medical treatment, what Motl Brody is now getting is not medical treatment, it is battery in the form of creating an illusion of life.  As such, discontinuation of mechanical ventilation is appropriate and will allow G-d&#039;s will to be done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect Yaakov, the lungs aren&#8217;t functioning with support the ventilator is doing the breathing.  Using this strict adherence to halacha, you could argue that even after the heart stops beating on its own the boy&#8217;s chest should be cracked to manually make the heart beat since that is, essentially what is being done to make it appear as though his lungs are still functioning. The Chasidic interpretation of halacha in this case isn&#8217;t following G-d&#8217;s will, it&#8217;s overriding it.  Halacha mandates necessary and appropriate medical treatment, what Motl Brody is now getting is not medical treatment, it is battery in the form of creating an illusion of life.  As such, discontinuation of mechanical ventilation is appropriate and will allow G-d&#8217;s will to be done.</p>
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		<title>By: Yaakov M. Hammer</title>
		<link>http://www.jewlicious.com/2008/11/one-of-those-moments-that-make-you-speechless/#comment-1092173</link>
		<dc:creator>Yaakov M. Hammer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=6130#comment-1092173</guid>
		<description>Contrary to your assertion that the parents are taking the hospital to court, the hospital initiated court action, according to the article you quote and other media coverage.  Did you verify the statement that the parents, who have six other children to support and care for, have not been to the hospital since July?  Did you know that relatives, friends, and neighbors have maintained a 24/7 vigil for nearly six months?  And in response to your question: as you note, letting go of a child cannot be easy, but here --- and as Jews we need to support each other --- pulling the plug is contrary to the halacha that guides and defines the parents&#039; lives.   Yaakov M. Hammer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Contrary to your assertion that the parents are taking the hospital to court, the hospital initiated court action, according to the article you quote and other media coverage.  Did you verify the statement that the parents, who have six other children to support and care for, have not been to the hospital since July?  Did you know that relatives, friends, and neighbors have maintained a 24/7 vigil for nearly six months?  And in response to your question: as you note, letting go of a child cannot be easy, but here &#8212; and as Jews we need to support each other &#8212; pulling the plug is contrary to the halacha that guides and defines the parents&#8217; lives.   Yaakov M. Hammer</p>
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