Speaking of “I can’t walk out…” this group, Footsteps, was mentioned on the news tonight in a piece about Orthos looking for kinky sex on craigslist.
footstepsorg.o...

I think it addresses some of the topic above.

I don’t see what is wrong with acknowledging America’s feats of heroism and extraordinary decency while also acknowledging its shortcomings and faults. History is not just about choosing a side to cheer for or to demonize. That said, I don’t know the degree to which restricting immigration was (aside from anti-Semitism) a result of legitimate social concerns, demogoguery, or demogoguery that the cognoscenti widely (both here and abroad) accepted as legitimate social concerns at the time, but were still reflective of appeals to demogoguery nonetheless.

All of these questions help parse down exactly what historical lessons can be learned from these events, even if that goal comes at the expense of seeing America (or any other country) as only either “100% good” or “100% bad”. Patriotism and good will are fine, but it’s important that those things not get in the way of drawing historical lessons.

You can call restricting refugees anti-semitism if it makes you feel better,and that was no doubt a large factor, but I think the U.S.A. deserves a slight bit more appreciation that that. There were countries that did not allow any refugees to come in.

Would U.S. Jews today be happy to let in the same number of refugees from Darfur and other impoverished and war-torn areas as FDR let in after WWII? I highly doubt it.

I’ll bet Ephraim is right, except for one thing– Hitler overran most of Europe and with it, most European Jews. At that point, expulsion was not the preferred option.

Morning Tom,

I apologize for calling you a gimp with a bottle. No cynicism, no quip, no retort. Just a simple “I’m sorry”.

Froylein – thanks for setting me straight.
I guess I realized that when the best I could come up with was “he started it” that the time had come to make amends.

Obviously the Holocaust is the sole responsibility of the Nazi regime and its supporters.

The dimensions of the catastrophe could have been different IF, should have been different IF, would have been different IF – but they aren’t.

What makes the whole thing so obscene is that history’s lessons in this case have not been learned. Modern day genocides – Darfur, Rwanda, Yugoslavia go on unchecked for the most part for many of the same reasons.

in the 30′s and 40′s we could still collectively claim that “we don’t know” that “it’s to horrible to be true”
but today we haven’t even that excuse any more and the guilt belongs to all of us.

Mike
“I tweet @pop_art & trot straw men”

Mike, if you refrain from ever saying anything bad about anyone who is not Israeli, I will refrain from voicing my opinions about Israeli politicians.

Or, ck and company can rename this blog “Israelicious” and make it off limits to gollus Yidden like me. And Catholics like Tom.

Of course, I’ve met plenty of Israelis who share my opinion of Peres, so Mike’s position is just one amongst many.

Also, believe it or not, I agree that the best thing for Israel, and the US, would be for Israel to be able to cut the apron strings to the US. The relationship is distorted and distorting.

And Mike is right about one thing: Hitler realized he would be able to murder the Jews and get away with it when he saw that no one wanted the refugees he was creating. Had the doors been open, I think he probably would have been satisfied with just robbing them and kicking them out. Easier than killing them.

Besides, we can likewise speculate that the Germans came very close to killing far, far more Jews. Imagine if Britain had accepted Hitler’s peace terms or hadn’t developed radar in time to defeat the Luftwaffe offensive. Or if the Soviets hadn’t scraped together forces to mount their offensive outside Moscow in December 1941– or had lost the battle of Stalingrad. Or if Hitler hadn’t invaded Yugoslavia in spring 1941, delaying the Russian campaign. Or if Hitler hadn’t gratuitously declared war on the USA in 12/41. Or if the Danes hadn’t hidden their Jews, or the Bulgarians theirs. Or if Horthy hadn’t initially resisted the Nazi takeover of Hungary. Your impertinent speculations cut both ways, with a vengeance.

Does it make you feel better to some hapless American rabbi for what Hitler did?

…he started it

: )

1939
February – June
Wagner-Rogers Bill proposes admitting 20,000 German refugee children to the U.S. The bill dies in committee.

May – June
The S.S. St. Louis, carrying 930 Jewish refugees, is turned away by Cuba. The U.S. refuses to admit the refugees, who are forced to return to Europe.

1941
June
New rules in the U.S. cut refugee immigration to about 25% of the relevant quotas.

By July the same year the Yiddish dailies in the states are already beginning to report that thousands of Jewish civilians have been already massacred in Nazi conquered areas. No one can claim at this point that “they didn’t know”

1942
June
The World Jewish Congress announce, at a press conference in London, that the Nazis have already killed over a million Jews.

July
20,000 people convene in New York’s Madison Square Garden to protest the Nazi atrocities.
20,000 – that’s one for every 500 killed.
The Palestinians do better than that.

I suggest you read Ben Hecht’s account of this event – brothersjuddbl...

“…Rabbi Wise said he would like to see me immediately in his rectory. His voice, which was sonorous and impressive, irritated me. I had never known a man with a sonorous and impressive voice who wasn’t either a con man or a bad actor. I explained I was very busy and unable to step out of my hotel.

“Then I shall tell you now, over the telephone, what I had hoped to tell you in my study,” said Rabbi Wise. “I have read your pageant script and I disapprove of it. I must ask you to cancel this pageant and discontinue all your further activities in behalf of the Jews. If you wish hereafter to work for the Jewish Cause, you will please consult me and let me advise you.”

At this point I hung up. When I informed Bergson of Rabbi Wise’s fatheadedness, he answered moodily, “We’ll have to get the spies out of our organization. There are obviously people among us carrying information and documents to the enemy.”

I was confused by the word enemy. I had up to that moment been thinking only of an enemy with a swastika…”

So now you know…
…and all the guilt geld in the world can’t buy you a clean conscience.

Mike

1.
At 34 I’m probably one of the youngest members of the 2nd generation alive. My father fled Germany in 1933 at the age of 13. In 1941 he joined the British army were he fought until the end of the war. In 1992 I joined the Israeli army were I serve as an Infantry captain in the reserves to this day.
Don’t preach to me.

Sadly it’s a documented fact that American Jewry refrained from doing much about the holocaust well until it was too late, out of fear of the Antisemitism they were sure that a massive influx of new Jewish immigrants would provoke.

“…Rabbi Leo Franklin, the prestigious and powerful leader of Detroit’s Temple Beth El since 1899, echoed the sentiments of many American Jews in the 1930s when he stated that “the Jews of Germany have suffered the tortures of hell, but it must not be forgotten that beyond counting also are the host of non-Jews who have incurred the displeasure of the despot.” Similarly, Franklin reflected the attitudes of other Jewish leaders when he expressed the hope in a sermon on November 25, 1938 that new settlements of Jews in the United States would not be encouraged beyond the country’s “absorptive capacity.” Such lack of foresight, he said, would lead to misunderstanding and conflict that should be avoided at all costs…”

The sad and inconvenient truth is that 6,000,000 could have been far less if we weren’t all so eager to ignore the impending doom on the European side of the ocean, and avoid provoking the Goyim on the American side.

Know your history.

2.
Like the founders of Zionism I despise the cult of Shnor and everything it signifies.

Take your money and shove it.

If we hadn’t had it we wouldn’t have grown fat and stupid, and you wouldn’t have had such a convenient outlet for your feelings of guilt, which might have actually caused you to get off your cushy asses and come to live were you truly belong.

3.
You can’t be a back-seat Zionist.

You want to make a difference?

You have an opinion and want me and my brethren to respect you enough to listen it?

GET OVER HERE!

4.
After you do that I’ll let you bad mouth my President all you like. Trash talking our politicians is our national pass time : )

Mike