However, as I am sure you know, the idea of an intercessor between man and G-d, or even a series of them like the worshipper-saint-JC-Hashem heirarchy you describe, is antithetical to Judaism. While Judaism recognizes the existence of various heavenly powers such as guardian angels (for example, it is generally considered that the “man” with whom Jacob wrestled, and whom he defeated, was Esau’s guardian angel), it is not permitted to worship or petition them for favors or intercession.

However, since gentiles are not required to abide by Jewish theology, it is neither here nor there.

I think we can agree on one thing, anyway: hegemonic Islam is bad news. Everyone in the West (and by that I mean anyone who values freedom), Jew, Christrian, or other, needs to oppose it.

Of course, it’s your prerogative to agree with us or not. My faith and yours will go endure for a very long time to come, and new times bring new challenges.

We have a new priest in our parish, from a city in central Nigeria not far from Jos, the scene of horrific sectarian riots last year; he’s not concerned with medieval Europe but with a hegemonic Islam that he excoriates in the strongest terms. Our Catholic Church has a history with glorious and not-so-glorious pages; we can hope to learn from that history to do differently, and better.

The Church’s Cathechism describes the “Jewish People [inter alia as] ‘the first to hear the Word of God.’ The
Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant.”

Jews accordingly have their own duties to God under their own, independent convenant with him.
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This is, as you say, the Catholic position – after Nostra Aetate. For most of Christian history – and still in many interactions between Christians and Jews, the old doctrine of “no one comes to the Father except through the Son” has led to repeated missionary targeting of Jews.

“Recognition” of Jewish people’s covenantal relationship with G-d usually amounted to Christians urging Jews to “fulfill themselves” – again, asserting that Christians know better than Jews what Judaism – and the Torah covenant – demand.

In the condescension sweepstakes, that’s a whopper.

My critique of Christianity is not condescending in that way. After all, it’s our Torah. If we see – and say – that Christian doctrines are not compatible with Jewish thought, that’s our prerogative. If you try to sell tofu burgers under golden arches, McDonald’s will defend their brand equity.

“Protestants believe that every single person who is a born again Christian, is, PRESENTLY, a saint. Protestants do not believe one can be made a saint by the declaration of the church. In the New Testament, the word ‘saint’ meant every single Christian, not some who were better than others or had been declared to be saints by the church. Protestants do not believe in worshipping or venerating saints.”

Since Vatican II, the culture of the church has moved away from emphasizing saints. I think it’s a little hokey and don’t really concern myself with it, but hey, if ol’ doubting Thomas wants to put in a good word for me, fine.

If you can translate the following, you’re doing me one better:

“The intercession of the saints: ‘Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven . . . do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus’. . . . [R]ecourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly . . . purified of the punishments for sin.”

To the extent that Jewish-Christian dialogue is for the purposes of esatblishing mutual respect and understanding, I am all for it. And I am glad that the Church has decided that it’s not cool to continue to hock our chayniks about JC. It is said that everyone has their own mishegoss, so I have no particular desire to try to disabuse Christians of their faith, so long as they extend the same courtesy to me. Of course, from a doctrinal point of view, I think Christianity is based on an incorrect understanding of the Torah, but as a Jew it is not possible for me to believe otherwise.

Anyway, Tom seems like a decent fellow. And I have been known to share a single malt or two with schismatics.

But, Tom, I agree with B-D on ione thing: can you explain the saint thing to me? To an outsider, it certainly seems like they function as sort of mini-deities to whom people pray directly. Are they intermediaries bewtenn the worshipper and G-d, sort of like JC himself, except on a lower level? In any case, I don’t get them. In the interests of full disclosure, I’m a mitnagid by temperament, and I am uncomfortable with the Chassidische rebbe thing too, so, froylein doesn’t need to lecture me on that angle.

It’s certainly was not my intention to “explain [your] faith to [you]“, being wholly unqualified to do so. Of course, that won’t keep you from trying to explain mine to me.

Having said that, given the church’s decision at the Council of Nicea to incorporate the whole of the Torah as part of its sacred texts, the church indeed cannot “entirely jettison its connection to Judaism” and does not aspire to do so. Jesus himself repeatedly affirmed He did not intend to somehow erase the law of Moses, quite the opposite. The church in fact recognizes the Jewish people’s senior, independent claim to a covenant relationship with God.

The Church’s Cathechism describes the “Jewish People [inter alia as] ‘the first to hear the Word of God.’ The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant.”

(This is Catholic teaching. As with matters like Jesus’s nature and the doctrine of the Trinity, Christians, a fractious bunch, differ, and I caution you not to assume other denominations echo our approach.)

Jews accordingly have their own duties to God under their own, independent convenant with him. We wish you the best in that effort.

The interfaith history you cite, alas, speaks for itself. However, you’re on sound ground in addressing how people behave. We’ll not persuade each other on a doctrinal level– that’s not the point of interfaith dialogue and events, and as the quoted passage shows, the Vatican has given up any effort at persuasion altogether. Rather, we should establish in dialogue baselines of mutual respect, for we can agree that we are all fashioned in the image and likeness of God.

It’s precisely the tragedies of the past that argue for, not against, such dialogue.

As an Israeli, such a Jewish-Christian effort may well strike you as superfluous, but in a pluralistic culture such as America’s, with its increasing tide of militant secularism, this is more important than ever. Who knows, it may even help pro-Israel advocates when they come calling at the evangelical megachurches.

And I suspect you’ll have your hands full in the coming decades with a very different set of interfaith relations, those with Muslims, and in that effort I wish you and your compatriots the very best of luck.

Sure.

Get real – the gentile church grew up in Rome, and under Roman influence. It was first promoted by Constantine, Justinian, and other Roman emperors. The map of early Christendom closely matched the sphere of Roman Empire influence.

The gentile church’s doctrines were codified largely by Romans (with the occasional North African scholar educated in Roman ways) during the first 4 centuries of the Common Era. They borrowed heavily from Gnosticism and other aspects of pagan Roman thought. Modern Christian bible scholarship clearly traces the transition from Hebrew/Aramaic sources in the earlier gospels to later gospels heavily influenced by pagan sources – 2nd and 3rd century Roman writers who never set foot in Jerusalem.

It’s bad enough I have to clarify Jewish teachings you claim as your spiritual inheritance – now I have to teach you church history?

More style over substance:
What I sense lurks beneath your ineffably personal view of Christianity 101 is the suspicion that Christians want to erase distinctions between the two faiths.
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Christianity began by asserting it was a continuation and fulfillment of Judaism – and still does. So I guess it’s not just “my suspicion”.

More ignorance:
Is this a variation on Ephraim’s theme that we’re all out to convert you?
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Jewish rejection of their claim to bear the mantle of Judaism was more of problem/insult for the gentile church than rejection by pagans – and the church responded from earliest times with a combination of virulent attack on Jews and redoubled efforts to get them to accept “their” Messiah.

Because of the ideological grudge match, Jews in Christendom were kept in poverty and slavery, to show their fallen state.

(see – the pattern of Christians thinking they know Judaism better than Jews goes way back – at least in your condescension you are being historically accurate, Tom….)

So, again, neither Ephraim nor I are making things up. We – like many Jews – have had a good taste of double-edged Christian “love”.

You haven’t addressed the substantive theological points I made – instead trying (incredibly!) to paint yourself as a victim of Jewish paranoia.

Christianity began as a Jewish sect. When Jesus didn’t come back, the narrative was re-written to appeal to gentiles of the Roman Empire.

But because the church had based its authority on a presumed continuation of Judaism, it could not jettison entirely its connection to Judaism.

From a Jewish perspective, the result is an odd hodgepodge of contradictory claims and beliefs (the competing assertions of monotheism and the Trinity are typical). It’s also led to confused, conflicted, and…. uneven attitudes towards Jews.

Kindly refrain from explaining my faith to me – or trying to explain away my quite rational, historically-based suspicion of church motives towards Jews.

You’d do well to spend the time researching more closely the origin of your own faith.

Without jumping into the middle of the theological argument here (or my own thoughts on the theology), I’d say that with regards to the differences between Judaism and Christianity, most Jews who this as B-D does, feel the exact opposite. This view is that Christianity has completely changed Judaism, to a degree that the two have almost nothing in common anymore (from a theological point of view), and so phrases such as Judeo-Christianity, and theories that Christianity is anything other than an utter corruption of Judaism.

Also, I’m not sure what is referred to in avoda zara in the Talmud, but if I remember correctly the extra blessing in the amida (v’lamalshinim at tehi tikva) refers to early Christians. How accurate is that, anyone?

Likewise, attributing Christianity to Roman pagan influences rather breaks down when one considers that two of the earliest nations to convert to the faith were Ethiopia and Armenia. (Thanks, anyway, for paying so much attention to what you imagine the pope is saying.)

What I sense lurks beneath your ineffably personal view of Christianity 101 is the suspicion that Christians want to erase distinctions between the two faiths. Is this a variation on Ephraim’s theme that we’re all out to convert you? Or do you assume that Christians believe that Jesus’s status as messiah is something any idiot should be able to see?

Jesus himself neither thought it obvious, nor did He wish it to make it so to others:

“When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’

‘Well,’ they replied, ‘some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.’ Then he asked them, ‘Who do you say I am?’
Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’

Jesus replied, ‘You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.

‘Now I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven.’

Then he sternly warned them not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.”

This is as ludicrous as it is offensive. It’s like the assimilated Jews who bray about the Jewish moral and intellectual heritage – but suddenly start painting the Rabbis as ignoramuses to weasel out of actual mitzvah observance.

You seem intelligent… you can go ahead and keep citing axe-grinding academics as if they know Judaism more than actual, practicing Jews.

And I’ll keep pointing out the ignorance and superficiality of your claims.

The assertion that Jewish sages embedded in Christendom were “ignorant” of Christian beliefs and practices reveals your own intellectual blind spots – not theirs.

Morrisey (and Froylein):

I don’t see much actual discussion of Christian doctrine under your bluster. Many Christians are insulted to learn just how much their religion diverges from the Judaism they thought they were continuing/fulfilling.

Sorry – you’re free to come up with your own moral code, instead of squatting on ours.

The number of Christians vs. Jew has nothing to do with the truth of the matter (of course, there would be a lot more of us without centuries of Christian “love” – but I have no need for victimology politics to defend what’s mine.)

As Christianity moved away from its Jewish roots – and became more pagan to appeal to gentiles – the Jewish sages observed it all, and concluded that Christianity was basically pagan and idolatrous in character.

Several core elements of Christianity make it irreconcilable with Jewish notions of monotheism. Most of them spring from the gentile church’s decision to portray Jesus not just as the (flesh and blood, human) Jewish messiah, but as a god-who-walked-on-earth. The rest can be traced directly to Roman Empire paganism.

- Incarnation, Virgin Birth and other “superhero” aspects of the Jesus myth: the whole notion of Jesus as some sort of supra-mortal being is problematic to Jews. We believe that G-d does not take on material forms, and transcends this world.

Neither Moses nor any other prophet ever became supra-human in this way. (Neither does Mohammed, BTW – and Moslems don’t worship him). Which leads to:

- Ascension to godhead status. For the Jew, this is no different than the story of Buddha – equally pagan.

- Trinity: never yet met a Christian who can convincingly reconcile this with monotheism. This doctrine has its roots in Roman Gnosticism.

- Pantheon of patron saints: the larger Catholic cathedrals have these, and Catholics around the world still pray directly to these lesser deities for intervention.

Jews pray only to the One G-d. When we pray at the grave of a holy person – all prayers are directed to G-d in the merit of the righteous.

Except for poetic license in some aggadah and medieval poetry, there is never a suggestion that the holy person’s soul can act independently. The meaning of these poems is clear – we are asking that G-d consider the merit of the righteous in His (sole) direction of the community and reality.

It’s not just the statues.

I’m surrounded in my town with synagogues of several denominations, so I’m tempted to favor Ben-David with my interpretation of their iconography, just as he describes for us churches (which? Catholic ones?) with their “shrines to sub-deity saints” who are “worshipped directly.” I’ve been Catholic all my life (and teach the faith to local kids) and I’ve never seen such shrines, nor have I ever been encouraged to “worship” saints.

Ben-David et al. resort to a stock-in-trade of atheists and lefties, too, in defining Christianity through what they imagine to be its most extreme adherents. Rather like, say, gay advocates who view heterosexuals as homophobic and obsessed with oppressing and converting gays. Or Rev. Lowery, whose inauguration remarks treated white people as whip-wielding crackers.

If interfaith dialogue can dispel such caricatures, we need more of it.

One gets the sense from some Jews that it’s not dialogue, but a one-way street, that’s preferred: ‘own up to your own history of anti-Semitism, Christians, but don’t expect us to interact with you or learn about you. We have nothing to learn from your saint-worshipping, “anthropomorphic” faith, so leave us alone.’

Well, as a practical matter, there are a hell of a lot more of us than of you. It’s in the interests of Jews to interact, in two-way fashion, with Christians, including Christian clergy. As froylein observes, times they are a-changing, and the Catholic Church no longer seeks to convert Jews and rejects supercessionism. Jews should welcome and help cement such developments. Relations of good will with the major Christian denominations are very much to Jewish advantage.

LBC may want to look into the medieval history he cites and examine the gruesome, hateful misconceptions that passed as folk wisdom in Europe at the time. If you want your neighbors to understand you, you must emerge out from under your mattress to deal with them. And you might begin by meaningfully distinguishing, say, Spain circa 1450 from the US c. 2009.

On the other hand– an extreme and judgmental view of others is no doubt quite useful in enforcing a regime of strict segregation. We’ve seen that movie before, too.

As coincidence would have it, today’s church bulletin carried the following item:

“In these challenging times of a worsening economy and unemployment, the Brookline clergy are hoping to provide an interfaith arena for all to share ideas. As an initial step a number of clergy and laity will be attending a meeting at Temple Emanuel in Newton on Wednesday evening Feb. 11. Any of our parishioners interested in attending with Fr. Butler are asked to contact him…”

Be afraid, my Jewish friends, be very afraid.