Jewish faith has it that god is not evil and does not do evil (as in inadequate punishment, suffering etc.), hence the unanswered question of theodicy. What answer does Job get? In a nutshell, “Don’t you see I’m so much superior than you and beyond your comprehension? So stop asking.” One of the psalms (got to look up the number later) quite clearly states that we will not understand god and why humans suffer before we’re dead.

Why would I end up in a place I see no purpose in? Wouldn’t it be an entertaining notion that everybody ended up in the hereafter in what he believed in here?

And are you still saying that Catholics don’t believe in an eternal hell when the catechism says exactly that? Sorry, but I think there’s something wrong with you. As you know, of course Jews don’t have any such thing.

Ask Erasmus how there can be evil in the world if G-d is who he’s supposed to be. There is evil in the world. Just look out your window. Saying G-d won’t permit it is sort of like believing the Europeans when they say that it is “unacceptable” for Iran to get the Bomb.

And if you want to believe in the Jewish god, even if you admit punishment for transgression for educational purposes (as explained in apocryphal texts), it does not sufficiently explain inadeqate evil like the Shoah or child abuse. There is neither educational value nor educational context in that. In Judaism as well, god does not stand for a dualism of good and evil – that clashes with the ideas of creation as well as salvation. That is also the issue of the list of scholars referred to in the article. That dualism is a popular explanation, but it’s nothing but pop-culture theology. Judaism as well believes that only the end, death, will reveal how evil can be understood (a topic recurringly referenced in the Psalms) in the context of an all-loving, omniscient and omnipotent god. Rabbis that claim such dualism need to get back to their books again pretty quickly; it’s a heathen concept – abodah zarah much.

From the Jewish Encyclopaedia:
He is the father (Isa. lxiii. 16, lxiv. 7); and like a father He taketh pity on His children (Ps. ciii. 13; see Compassion). Therefore, love is due to Him on the part of His children (Deut. vi. 4-5). The demand to fear Him, in the light of the implications of the Hebrew original, is anything but in conflict with the insistence that the relations between God and man are marked by parental and filial love. The God of the Bible is not a despot, to be approached in fear. For “yir’ah” connotes an attitude in which confidence and love are included, while the recognition of superiority, not separation, is expressed (Nietzsche’s “pathos of distance”).

Again, Christians do not believe that god is wrathful no matter how your take on that might be, so they also don’t believe that god permits evil (which would outrule omnipotence and an all-loving nature), AND THAT IS WHY they have problems explaining how evil comes about. Their hell (purgatory as explained above as they understand it; I didn’t switch topics, but did not get repetitive and responded to your claim that Judaism does not believe in eternal damnation in hell. The entry from the Jewish Encyclopaedia referencing the norm-giving treatises by sages clearly says that damnation in hell is eternal and that negative impulses, such as anger and mockery, not just cardinal sins, make for eternal punishment. That catechism was issued by authority of John Paul II. BTW, so he’d be the official author) is a transitory place of “cleaning” of the souls.

Let’s just note, conveniently enough for me, that if you get angry at me or you mock me, you’ll go to hell. Forever. You’ll be in there with the leftists that didn’t like my criticism of Obama and the person that didn’t like my penis post, and that guy doesn’t sound fun, so beware.

But it is more than a little disingenuous of you to claim that a statement by a Jewish “hardliner” (Satmar in this case, the hardest of the hard) proves that “Judaism believes” that Gehinnom is eternal while pooh-poohing the statements by Catholic hardliners about the existence of Hell, saying that the Pope doesn’t believe it and then changing the subject to “well, the Jews believe it too” when I quote chapter and verse from the catechism that Ratzinger himself edited, at least according to Tom. Sauce for the goose, etc.

Again, you’re missing the point of my original objection to what you said. I have never said, nor have I ever heard a rabbi say, that G-d is “pure love”. There may be some that think this way; I am sure we could get into a pretty good argument about it. G-d has a mixed nature: he is equal parts love and punishment. What side he shows depends on what you do. I only objected to your statement that the god of Christianity isn’t wrathful, when it is plain that he is. There is simply no other explanation for Hell.

Unless, like I said, you want to define love in such a way that it allows for a god that does this. This is always a possibility, I suppose.

The dilemma of the inability to answer the question of theodicy still exists. Christianity wouldn’t have its finest scholars concerned with that dilemma if it did believe in a wrathful god.

It is not that the Christian god is not wrathful, is is that Christianity just DOESN’T WANT to believe in a wrathful god, in spite of the fact that their theology demands it. That is, they start out from the philosophical premise that G-d cannot be wrathful. He must be pure love. But then they are stuck with the problem of evil and, as you say, put their finest scholars on the dilemma, where they promptly tie themselves in knots trying to figure out what caused all the trouble and explain away the plain evidence of their own texts. Ignoring reality and trying to fit it into a preconceived idea about what you want it to be always causes problems.

This is just plain silly. A god that condemns non-believers to a burn forever (forever! think about that for a second)in a lake of eternal fire must be, by definition, pretty pissed off about something.

Again, AFAIK, the Jewish “dogma” about Gehinnom, if here even is such a thing, holds that the punishments to which you refer are limited in duration. Like I said, not a pleasant thought, but nowhere near as bad as eternal damnation, I would say.

The reason I don’t have a problem with this, at least from a philosophical or structural point of view, is that I have never questioned the obvious fact that sin pisses G-d off (makes him “wrathful”) and that he punishes people for it. The classical metaphor, of course, is the father who loves his child but has to offer correction in the form of punishment, when the child fucks up. But there is never any doubt about the fact that the father loves the child.

Now, if you want to say that in the Christian conception the threat of eternal damnation for sinners (and that is exactly what the catechism says it is) is proof of G-d’s love, go right ahead. I just don’t buy it.

Again, if you had said “in Christianity G-d is just as wrathful as he is in Judaism” we wouldn’t have had to waste all this time.

If you care to read the entry from the Jewish Encyclopaedia, which I’ve posted in full text above, you’ll see that it says in the entry on Gehenna:
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man’s portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: “Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked” (’Er. 19a).

So in Jewish doctrine, there is eternal hell for sinners and only tsaddikim make it into heaven. The sins that lead to Gehenna are listed further below in the encyclopaedia entry, anger being one of them.

Furthermore, the free-will line of explaining why there is evil in this world does not explain how evil can come about by natural disasters or animals (which, according to Jewish theology, do not possess free will). That line of argumentation has been refuted by many Jewish as well as Christian scholars of standing as it basically outrules that god is either omniscient, ominipotent or all-loving. The dualism of good and evil in a monotheistic theology is regarded an impossibility and illogical. If there were an evil force as able as a loving god to create, then that would make more than one deity. If evil solely was caused by man, the question would arise why god has given man the gift of free will without an inclination to do others harm. Still, any attempted answer on that question would ignore the existence of evil and suffering that isn’t “manmade”. So if god’s abilities are limited, he is theologically turned into an anthropomorphic deity, an idol. This is not about biblical narrative but about THEOlogy at its purest. The dilemma of the inability to answer the question of theodicy still exists. Christianity wouldn’t have its finest scholars concerned with that dilemma if it did believe in a wrathful god. Since it, however, doesn’t, the existence of evil in this world becomes inexplicable and the question of theodicy arises.

This article, while focusing on the Shoah, reflects Jewisch scholar’s attempts at making up a theodicy; alas, theologically and philsophically they just remain that, attempts, as at some point they all are in for a logical lapsus or shift from a theodicy to an anthropodicy: terrynewman.co...
Still, the article clearly demonstrates how the historic reality of the Jewish people clashes with the Jewish theology of an all-loving, omnipotent and omniscient god.
[The notion of the original of the intention of the Inquisition is not quite historically accurate; it started mostly to rid Spain of Muslim influence and the eventually changed directions.]

I usually go to bed between midnight and 1am and get up between 4am and 5am.

Jesus was as explicit about heaven and hell as Karl Marx was about communism, i.e., not very. Froylein’s background data is intriguing, because I’d construed Jesus’s comments about ‘unquenchable fire’ (Luke 3:17) as referring to extant Jewish doctrine.

Jesus portrayed a carefully-graduated set of rewards (John 14:2) and punishments, in which, for example, not all who are saved get identical treatment. Church teaching echoes this with its notions of purgatory (a temporary purification process to ready one for heaven), ‘limbo’, etc.

Whether one calls it hell or something else, there’s no doubt that under Christian teaching, one will be held accountable for one’s conduct. If one persistently rejects the word of God (the 10 Cs, etc.) and behaves contrary to God’s law, one will be punished, including the ultimate sanction of eternal damnation. Jesus presumably saves us from something, as Ephraim observes.

“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.’ For many are called, but few chosen.” (Matthew 22).

So far as I know, these are references to what Catholics call Purgatory, not Hell. Everything I have read and heard indicates that in Judaism even the most extreme opinions hold that a soul’s period in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months. There is also the question of whether this belief is universally accepted or binding upon all Jews as a matter of dogma. The definitions of Olam Haba are presented in so many various ways it’s hard to know exactly what it will be like.

Not pleasant, needless to say, but not eternal, either. So far as I can tell from the catechism, official Catholic dogma is that Hell exists and the damned suffer there for all eternity. So even if Judaism required belief in the dogma of purgatory, it is nowhere near as extreme as the Christian dogmas regarding Hell.

Not sure what you mean by your last statement. You know as well as I do that anthropomorphic descriptions of G-d are attempts to describe his qualities in ways humans can understand them.

Not so sure why you have to assume G-d is schizophrenic because there is evil in the world. No system of thought that I know of has successfully “solved” the problem of reconciling the existence of G-d with the existence of evil. Judaism’s views about free will make pretty good sense to me.

But, whatever. My original argument with you was not to try to prove the superiority of Judaism over Christianity. My only beef with you was your assertion that the Christian god is not wrathful. Since we have established that Catholicism does indeed still believe in the eternal damnation of sinners (however that is defined), and since, in my opinion, that makes him as wrathful as the next god, I think we can call it a day.

Unless, of course, you want to insist that the catechism doesn’t mean what it says.

How late do you stay up, anyway?

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the “valley of the son of Hinnom,” to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and “Gehenna” therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for “hell.” Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words “very good” in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The “fiery furnace” that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; ‘Er. 19a, where the “fiery furnace” is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the “accursed valley” (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem (‘Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta’an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. “The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured” (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Soṭah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, “Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern,” pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, “Kurzes Bibel-wörterb.” p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream (“dinur”) falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is “the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West” (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, “Das Leben nach dem Tode,” p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, “Abraxas,” p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: “Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry.” But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: “I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals” (‘Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: “Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power” (‘Ab. Zarah 17a).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man’s portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: “Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked” (‘Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; “after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat’s son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away” (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom (‘Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God (‘Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). “The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity” (Judith xvi. 17).
(see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Sin and Merit.

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name “Gehenna” itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; ‘Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta’an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; ‘Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see ‘Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.

On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema’ and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors (‘Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions “doomed to hell” and “to be saved from hell” must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see ‘Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.

Bibliography: Winer, B. R. i. 491;
Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 527-530;
Hastings, Dict. Bible, ii. 343-346;
H. Guthe, Kurzes Bibelwörterb. pp. 271-274, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903;
G. Brecher, Das Transcendentale, etc. pp. 69-73, Vienna, 1850;
A. Hilgenfeld, Jüdische Apocalyptik, Index, Jena, 1857;
F. Weber, Jüdische Theologie, pp. 336 et seq.;
E. Stave, Der Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum, pp. 153-192 et seq., Haarlem, 1898;
James, Traditional Aspects of Hell, London, 1903.K. L. B.

Anyhow, as for the Jewish belief in hell: jewishencyclop...

I never claimed that G-d as depicted in the Torah does not have a wrathful side. He does, obviously. Sin is severely punished, no doubt about it. G-d says “this is what you should do and this is what you should not do. If you do what I say, things will be fine, if you don’t, watch out.” I have never claimed otherwise.

My point was not to claim that G-d does not have his wrathful side. I was taking issue with froylein’s claim that the Christians do not believe in a wrathful god. They may say that their god is all love, but I do not accept this. Any god who condemns people to an eternity of damnation and hellfire cannot be a loving god.

So far as I know, Judaism has no dogma about what the Christians call hell, and, so far as I can tell, absolutely no belief that people who don’t do what G-d wants, Jews or otherwise, will suffer damnation in hellfire for eternity.

Christianity most definitely does believe this, however, and in spite of what froylein says about Catholic teaching having done away with the teaching on hell, I googled “catechism” and came up with the official Catholic catechism from vatican.va

Here is the section on Hell, and boy, it’s all there:

vatican.va/arc...

Here are a couple of money quotes:

Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”

This is straight from the horse’s mouth, unless froylein can convince me that this is another site run by fanatics.

I stand by my statement. A god who will punish people with eternal damnation in a lake of fire simply because they do not believe in him cannot be “all love”. He is more wrathful and vengeful that our supposed “vengeful” G-d, by so many orders of magnitude it cannot begin to be calculated.