Comments on: A Fine Map for your Next Trip to the West Bank http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/ It's a Jewish Blog! Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:17:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ben-David http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1311115 Ben-David Thu, 14 May 2009 19:32:30 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1311115 Historically, most of the land was not owned by the Arabs who lived on it - but by wealthy absentee landlords and satraps in Iraq and Syria. Historically, most of the land was not owned by the Arabs who lived on it – but by wealthy absentee landlords and satraps in Iraq and Syria.

]]> By: LB http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1311079 LB Thu, 14 May 2009 17:00:46 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1311079 I'd really like to read the report first, but if this is the same thing as what Peace Now put out a few years ago, "based on Civil Administration" figures - then it's wrong. Peace Now manipulated the data to serve its own purposes. Two examples - any land that was only accessible past a checkpoint to a certain settlement was counted as Israeli built land - even if it wasn't inside the fence of that settlement. State lands over the green line are a complicated issue - there are lands that are re-certified state lands, there are lands that are considered state lands (but are undergoing the aforementioned process of re-certification - but people on the ground, checking every dunam). But then there are two more categories - 1. "abandoned land" - unclaimed land that undergoes a process of notification and waiting for someone to claim and prove ownership of the land. If no one claims it within 10 years (I believe) then the state claims ownership for use - UNLESS someone can then claim ownership (i.e. the statute of limitations is a pretty fluid concept here) - and then either the land is handed over or some sort of compensation is given (depending on what is on the land at that point). 2. All other land (usually unclaimed and not yet claimed by the state) - which is probably still the majority of the land. Peace Now, in its report from a few years ago (early 2007 - <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/world/middleeast/14israel.html?pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">NYT article from then</a>) included all land that was not approved as privately owned by Jews or the state (i.e. the majority of the land) as private Arab-owned land. These "errors" were published, despite clarifications at the time by the Civil Administration. Nevertheless, I haven't see this report, so I don't know all the fact about it. I don't know if it's the same one from 2007, but if it is - then it's full of a lot of manipulations and misleading the public. I’d really like to read the report first, but if this is the same thing as what Peace Now put out a few years ago, “based on Civil Administration” figures – then it’s wrong. Peace Now manipulated the data to serve its own purposes.

Two examples – any land that was only accessible past a checkpoint to a certain settlement was counted as Israeli built land – even if it wasn’t inside the fence of that settlement.

State lands over the green line are a complicated issue – there are lands that are re-certified state lands, there are lands that are considered state lands (but are undergoing the aforementioned process of re-certification – but people on the ground, checking every dunam).

But then there are two more categories – 1. “abandoned land” – unclaimed land that undergoes a process of notification and waiting for someone to claim and prove ownership of the land. If no one claims it within 10 years (I believe) then the state claims ownership for use – UNLESS someone can then claim ownership (i.e. the statute of limitations is a pretty fluid concept here) – and then either the land is handed over or some sort of compensation is given (depending on what is on the land at that point).

2. All other land (usually unclaimed and not yet claimed by the state) – which is probably still the majority of the land.

Peace Now, in its report from a few years ago (early 2007 – NYT article from then) included all land that was not approved as privately owned by Jews or the state (i.e. the majority of the land) as private Arab-owned land.

These “errors” were published, despite clarifications at the time by the Civil Administration.

Nevertheless, I haven’t see this report, so I don’t know all the fact about it. I don’t know if it’s the same one from 2007, but if it is – then it’s full of a lot of manipulations and misleading the public.

]]> By: josh http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1311072 josh Thu, 14 May 2009 16:34:12 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1311072 To be objective, it should also include the illegal Arab building in Judea and Samaria. But it doesn't. God willing. More Jewish building in the future. I can't wait until the next Peace Now census shows 300 000 Jews. vs only 1.5 million Arabs in Judea and Samaria. To be objective, it should also include the illegal Arab building in Judea and Samaria. But it doesn’t.

God willing. More Jewish building in the future. I can’t wait until the next Peace Now census shows 300 000 Jews. vs only 1.5 million Arabs in Judea and Samaria.

]]> By: themiddle http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1311044 themiddle Thu, 14 May 2009 14:46:12 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1311044 We can't prove anything without the original report. Why trust Yesh Din? We can’t prove anything without the original report.

Why trust Yesh Din?

]]> By: LB http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1311041 LB Thu, 14 May 2009 14:41:43 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1311041 Does anyone have a link to the original report, in Hebrew? I couldn't find one that actually works - the one xisnotx posted really don't work (nearly crashed browser, only gibberish when finally loaded). Does anyone have a link to the original report, in Hebrew? I couldn’t find one that actually works – the one xisnotx posted really don’t work (nearly crashed browser, only gibberish when finally loaded).

]]> By: xisnotx http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310999 xisnotx Thu, 14 May 2009 12:08:52 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310999 unless someone can prove Yesh Din mistranslated the Spiegal report, I don't see any big question about the map. the new york times seems to agree. I looked on NGO Monitor, & mistranslation was not among its complaints about Yesh Din. unless someone can prove Yesh Din mistranslated the Spiegal report, I don’t see any big question about the map. the new york times seems to agree. I looked on NGO Monitor, & mistranslation was not among its complaints about Yesh Din.

]]> By: Yoni C. http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310992 Yoni C. Thu, 14 May 2009 11:32:10 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310992 I've been reading Mondoweiss lately, I greatly question anything associated w/ that blog. Don't get me wrong, the settlements suck, they are hindrance to any peace, but I side w/ Middle on this one, the legitimacy of something is only as strong as the person providing it. and Mondoweiss and its bigoted readers definitely have an agenda. I’ve been reading Mondoweiss lately, I greatly question anything associated w/ that blog.

Don’t get me wrong, the settlements suck, they are hindrance to any peace, but I side w/ Middle on this one, the legitimacy of something is only as strong as the person providing it. and Mondoweiss and its bigoted readers definitely have an agenda.

]]> By: Chajms Sicht http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310943 Chajms Sicht Thu, 14 May 2009 08:09:31 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310943 <strong>Westbankreise...</strong> Die Karte ist keine neue, dennoch hat Jewlicious dankbarerweise auf diesen Blick in die Westbank hingewiesen. Sie zeigt einen Auszug aus der Speigel-Datenbank (in hebräischer Sprache hier) und dokumentiert die Aktivität der Siedler in der Wes... Westbankreise…

Die Karte ist keine neue, dennoch hat Jewlicious dankbarerweise auf diesen Blick in die Westbank hingewiesen. Sie zeigt einen Auszug aus der Speigel-Datenbank (in hebräischer Sprache hier) und dokumentiert die Aktivität der Siedler in der Wes…

]]> By: xisnotx http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310932 xisnotx Thu, 14 May 2009 07:33:45 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310932 btw, NYT picked up on that map: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/mapping-israeli-settlements-on-the-west-bank/ btw, NYT picked up on that map:

opinionator.bl...

]]> By: xisnotx http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310922 xisnotx Thu, 14 May 2009 07:01:13 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310922 the haaretz article i posted before has a link to the Hebrew report. but all i get is gobbledygook (maybe i need to have hebrew installed on my browser?): http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P300109/uriib.mht the haaretz article i posted before has a link to the Hebrew report. but all i get is gobbledygook (maybe i need to have hebrew installed on my browser?):

haaretz.co.il/...

]]> By: themiddle http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310918 themiddle Thu, 14 May 2009 06:54:13 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310918 Yesh Din is about as <strike>trustworthy</strike> unbiased as a reader on Mondo Weiss. Does anybody have the original document so we can all look at it and decide for ourselves, without the filter of the far Left? Yesh Din is about as trustworthy unbiased as a reader on Mondo Weiss.

Does anybody have the original document so we can all look at it and decide for ourselves, without the filter of the far Left?

]]> By: xisnotx http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310908 xisnotx Thu, 14 May 2009 06:05:19 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310908 tm -- this map was started by a reader of Mondo Weiss: http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/02/spiegel-database-of-west-bank-settlements-and-outposts----view-larger-map.html "To help get the word out, Mondo reader Jamie Dyer has used the information in the translated excerpts of the database to create this google map." "translated excerpts" leads to this link, which is a Yesh Din translation of the Spiegel report: http://www.philipweiss.org/files/spiegeldatabaseeng.pdf I checked a few of the entries, they seem to be taken straight from Yesh Din's translation. tm — this map was started by a reader of Mondo Weiss:

philipweiss.or...

“To help get the word out, Mondo reader Jamie Dyer has used the information in the translated excerpts of the database to create this google map.”

“translated excerpts” leads to this link, which is a Yesh Din translation of the Spiegel report:

philipweiss.or...

I checked a few of the entries, they seem to be taken straight from Yesh Din’s translation.

]]> By: themiddle http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310897 themiddle Thu, 14 May 2009 05:43:12 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310897 Xisnotx, I was aware of that and there may even be a post somewhere where I covered it. That's not my question. My question relates to the Google map. Who wrote the descriptions? This is a modified report in the sense that the descriptions appear to be written by interested parties. Xisnotx, I was aware of that and there may even be a post somewhere where I covered it. That’s not my question. My question relates to the Google map. Who wrote the descriptions? This is a modified report in the sense that the descriptions appear to be written by interested parties.

]]> By: xisnotx http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310896 xisnotx Thu, 14 May 2009 05:36:19 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310896 tm, this database was prepared for the army, by a general. it was made public (and not all of it) in response to a Peace Now petition. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060043.html Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement Just four years ago, the defense establishment decided to carry out a seemingly elementary task: establish a comprehensive database on the settlements. Brigadier General (res.) Baruch Spiegel, aide to then defense minister Shaul Mofaz, was put in charge of the project. For over two years, Spiegel and his staff, who all signed a special confidentiality agreement, went about systematically collecting data, primarily from the Civil Administration. tm, this database was prepared for the army, by a general. it was made public (and not all of it) in response to a Peace Now petition.

haaretz.com/ha...
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement

Just four years ago, the defense establishment decided to carry out a seemingly elementary task: establish a comprehensive database on the settlements. Brigadier General (res.) Baruch Spiegel, aide to then defense minister Shaul Mofaz, was put in charge of the project. For over two years, Spiegel and his staff, who all signed a special confidentiality agreement, went about systematically collecting data, primarily from the Civil Administration.

]]> By: themiddle http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310745 themiddle Wed, 13 May 2009 19:55:34 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310745 Muffti, a little more detail in this post would help. For example, who wrote the contents? What is their bias? Does anybody challenge this? What has the government said about it? Etc. Muffti, a little more detail in this post would help. For example, who wrote the contents? What is their bias? Does anybody challenge this? What has the government said about it? Etc.

]]> By: vicki http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310731 vicki Wed, 13 May 2009 19:15:17 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310731 Thanks for posting. I didn't realize Google Israel Maps were already that fleshed in and detailed. Looks like I can get driving directions from Tel Aviv next time I feel like a day trip to Abraham's tomb! Thanks for posting. I didn’t realize Google Israel Maps were already that fleshed in and detailed. Looks like I can get driving directions from Tel Aviv next time I feel like a day trip to Abraham’s tomb!

]]> By: prodigal observer http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/05/a-fine-map-for-your-next-trip-to-the-west-bank/#comment-1310716 prodigal observer Wed, 13 May 2009 18:25:03 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8390#comment-1310716 gee mufti, i thought golda meir said there was no such thing as a plestinian people let me make a prediction for you, reform judaism will be extinct, pretty soon orthodox and right wing judaism will dominate, israel will use nuclear blackmail, israel will worship the false messiah, israel will perish end of story gee mufti, i thought golda meir said there was no such thing as a plestinian people

let me make a prediction for you, reform judaism will be extinct, pretty soon orthodox and right wing judaism will dominate, israel will use nuclear blackmail, israel will worship the false messiah, israel will perish

end of story

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