9 Things I Learned at Affilicon ’09

Kudos to Itay Paz and his Affilicon crew. That was one well-oiled (well-coffeed?) machine of a conference. My favorite thing (seriously, I’m sentimental this way): A charging station for laptops / Blackberries, complete with orange t-shirt clad babysitter. I felt like I was dropping my kid off in the play room at the mall.

Charlie Kalech, Harlan Kilstein, and Ran Aroussi on Crackberry, Affilicon '09

During the Drill: Charlie Kalech, Harlan Kilstein, and Ran Aroussi on Crackberry, Affilicon

What is Affilicon? Find out here in time for next year. In a nutshell: A two-day seminar  / networking-intensive expo with the goal of teaching Internet marketers and affiliates (and copywriters!!) how to sell mostly intangible stuff to lots of people you’ll never lay eyes on and make money on it.

Where do I sign up? Apparently, not on my own RSS feed, which lacks nearly every element required to make people click and “commit”. Who knew my lovely, highly labor intensive homepage was an “opt in  / landing page?” (Thanks, Andrea Yager.)

I was told by copywriting guru and marketing mutineer Dr. Harlan Kilstein that I could continue to be a starving artist and fish for minnows, or get some balls, drop the pretense, and fish for bass. That kill(stein)ed me.

Here are eight other things I learned yesterday at Affillicon ’09 (Twitter: #affilicon09):

 1. “While we try to build a better world we need to be prepared against evil forces.” – pink flyer handed out at the entrance….Great way to market the Defense Exercise. (I didn’t even hear the siren downstairs, but I’m all prepared now. I think.)

2. Lots of (if not most) marketers need copywriters, but only half of them know it, even though they often barely speak English. This is a redux of my Israeli road sign / restaurant menu pet peeve. An English Bagrut in 10th grade, and everybody’s William Safire.

Listen up guys: Writing – writing WELL – is a profession. How is it that a country full of Jews forgot this? At LEAST get someone to proofread for typos on your homepage. Would you let me write your backend code when I don’t know Drupal from Nepal and have never met a Joomla? No? And you shouldn’t be writing your own copy.

3. Never say something to a panel participant you don’t want repeated in front of hundreds of people, like: “So this woman asks me about monetizing her site and wonders about compromising her art, she goes, but there’s poetry on my page….chuckle, chuckle…” (Corollary: Never say anything to or about a writer / blogger you don’t want blogged.)

4. The people who run casino and gambling sites look EXACTLY like you think they will – Boy Band goes to Cyprus. There were even gamer girls in leatherette pants. You should come next year, ck.

5. I can drink a literally unfathomable amount of coffee and enjoy every sip.

6. Which brings me to this: To be a successful Internet marketer / optimizer / etc, you will most likely need to have ADD. Don’t worry, you can develop this later in life, too. Hey, I love your shoes! What was I saying? Oh yeah. Several of the people on the panel, when asked why they went into the field, cited a loathing of school and 9-5 jobs, and a desire to have an informal, flexible, pajama and café / club based life, while (wait for it) making lots of money….

7. …Which brings me to this: Sure are lots of people trying to be affiliate / Internet marketers. I had guessed that already on the basis of my Twitter following.  Any ideas from the esteemed gallery on how there is enough work out there for all these people, the more established of whom seem to all be earning well? (Or is that just marketing?)

8. Which in turn brings me to the best thing I learned all day, from the aforementioned Yager: ‘I am an expert because I say I am.’ This runs so counter to my training that I almost choke on it, but apparently, it’s how you do it. Look for me as a speaker at next year’s Affilicon, a copywriting rags to riches story. Really.

(That statement was the equivalent of a batter pointing over the wall, out of the park… And the crowd goes wild.)








  1. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/3/2009 at 6:22 am

    I am an expert because I say I am …

    I heard several people express some concern about that particular remark.

  2. Pingback: I Should Be Making Money While I Sleep | The-Word-Well

  3. ck

    6/3/2009 at 6:58 am

    Fact: 97% of the participants at Affilicon in Israel are not going to earn back the price of their admission by the time the next Affilicon rolls around next year.

    I have no interest in gamer girls in leatherette anything.

    Dr. Harlan Kilstein and his ilk are the death of the Internet. What Kilstein will tell you, and this is a fact, is that CRAPPY content results in a higher click through rate on your Google ads. Optimize a page for some high profit search term and who gives a crap about the quality of the actual content? It’s all about getting stupid people to click on stupid ads for stupid crap that they don’t need. I’d rather live under a bridge and eat garbage than do that for a living. Hey! I hear selling heroin is also pretty profitable!

    Finally, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE note that these people encourage others to become self proclaimed experts. Bunch of greedy little fuckers who don’t actually know the first thing about the Internet. All the crap imparted upon you at Affilicon is one Google search algorithm tweak away from becoming completely useless.

    But thanks for the inside perspective sarke!

  4. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 7:01 am

    Now ck….it’s unhealthy to hold back your feelings. Next time, tell us how you really feel. 🙂

  5. Miriam Schwab

    6/3/2009 at 7:14 am

    Very entertaining writeup!

    I can see where ck is coming from, but I think it’s a matter of certain professions suiting certain people. I think I’ve come to terms with the fact that I can never be the type of affiliate marketer that was promoted at the conference. I don’t know how people can promote and sell products that they’re not passionate about. And I’m not even talking about the “grey” areas of internet marketing where people sell lies. I definitely could not go there.

    But it does work for some people. I think they’re passionate about making the sale, or the challenge of getting people to buy on the web, and that’s what keeps them going, and as long as they’re not selling lies, gambling, porn, or other things that destroy society, I say good for them.

    As for Harlan: I had a nice shmooze with him at the end and he struck me as a guy who knows what he’s doing and can actually make a living from it, and he’s nice and entertaining too.

    In short: I had a great time at the conference! I learned new stuff, and talked to lots of fun people, which is the ikar at these things anyways.

  6. ck

    6/3/2009 at 7:15 am

    Have you been chatting with TheMiddle? That’s like his stock patented response whenever I go on a tear! But you do know there was nothing personal there right? I just hate shit like Affilicon.

  7. ck

    6/3/2009 at 7:24 am

    The problem is that all the big money is in “lies, gambling, porn, or other things that destroy society.” Why is a PhD world class shmexpert like Dr. Harlan Kilstein wasting his time at Affilicon imparting wisdom on n00bs when he can be at work making billions of dollars daily selling crap on the Internets? Is it because he’s a humanitarian? Or is it because he makes more money selling bullshit and crap to greedy or desperate or naive people willing to pony up, what $200+ to be sold a bill of goods? Greed is the new avodah zarah, Affilicon and it’s ilk are the new temples of Ba’al and self proclaimed SEO/Social Networking gurus are the priests selling people the false idols of happiness through easy money.

    Seriously. Just sell heroin to school children! talk about a sticky product and recurring revenues!

  8. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 8:08 am

    OK but the real question is: how are you and miriam getting your pics in the comment icon and how do i do it? I’d say closer to PT Barnum’s Circus or the Wizard’s Oz than Baal. There is the theory that those who wish to be deceived deserve to be. Not saying I subscribe to it…but the internet is no different than any other sucker trap. Remember Ripley’s believe it or not? My parents never let me go to the one in Ocean City. Ooof.

  9. Miriam Schwab

    6/3/2009 at 8:13 am

    I disagree. Just because you can rip someone off doesn’t mean you should. People are rip-offable because they trust others. Ripping them off is playing off of their trust. Plus, scams can run from tiny to huge. Madoff ripped off a lot of smart, good people. I don’t think they deserved it, just because he succeeded.

    As for the picture…go to gravatar.com and upload a picture of yourself. Many blogs pull avatars of commenters from there, including this one.

  10. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 8:18 am

    tx miriam!

    and btw – i agree with you entirely. But the question of where business ends and where deception begins is at the crux of marketing in general, and the answers are not cut and dry. Not a new discussion, but never ceases to intrigue me.

  11. ck

    6/3/2009 at 8:21 am

    The easiest people in the world to con are greedy people. Any good grifter knows that. Every good con plays on the victim’s desire for an easy gain. As for Madoff, shit, every one knows you have to diversify your investments. Madoff’s con did not withstand close scrutiny and those that got conned were stupid, or greedy, or both. OK, maybe some were merely naive.

  12. Shira

    6/3/2009 at 9:19 am

    SarKE – you asked for it – so here it goes.

    Why give kudos to someone who is promoting a conference that degrades and tosses away the very thing you make your money from? Sorry Miriam, but I went to the conference last year and I didn’t get a single word of wisdom that helped me build my blog. It’s a bunch of inflated egos on that stage and all they do is puff their chests and to show who has the biggest. I agree with CK wholeheartedly.

    With that said – I’d love to cover the conference next year for Jewlicious – I can guarantee you it would be an entertaining review…


  13. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 9:34 am

    Shira baby I will race you for the press pass. Run or swim? (I dont bike.)

    Im not sure I see it as a tossing away. I sense there is something to learn from everyone, and a wide middle ground between starving artist and soulless huckster. This is reminding me (not exactly the same but there are similarities) of when Jonathan Franzen dissed Oprah b/c she was too populist. These guys are trying to reach the Oprah crowd, and under. Maybe they can teach me how to reach them too. I wont lower my standards as far as my content; but if i can learn the tricks of the free giveaway or the importance of list building…What’s bad? Take the good, throw out the bad; i did it all thru hellish parochial school, I do it in conformist suburbia, and I can do it at Affilicon. But I see the moral point you make.

  14. froylein

    6/3/2009 at 10:05 am

    The thing is that in another court, they play at a different level, namely those players that pursue university degrees in “information management” and comparable subjects, which cover the required knowledge in IT, marketing / sales / economics, psychology / customer relations etc.

    The trick of the free give-away is never to email or write a letter for initial contact but to call and to demand to talk to the person “in charge”. Then stroke the ego of the person you’re talking to by positively emphasizing their role in the corporation, show genuine interest and sympathy for their load of responsibility. People don’t like being the recipients of generic begging / networking.

  15. ck

    6/3/2009 at 10:18 am

    Sheesh. You want to know all that stuff Sarke? We’ll organize a free lecture where I will gather real experts who will impart that knowledge on you for free. Well, at least for a lot less than $800 or whatever those hucksters at Affilicon charge. Don’t toy with me. I WILL do it!

  16. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 10:22 am

    competition is fabulous. its officially a dare.

  17. shira

    6/3/2009 at 10:35 am

    How about we go together and debate in next years post the pros and cons of such a conference?

    BTW – I only bike. Can’t swim and hate running. Mad for bikes though.


  18. SarKE

    6/3/2009 at 12:07 pm

    Shira – how bout we go together and present: why the rest of internet professionals dont like you and how you can give back to society to combat your bad image??

    I guess we should register as one person for a triathalon, then.

  19. neyne

    6/3/2009 at 12:53 pm

    CK, why so serious ?

    I was on one of the panels so I guess i must be one of the greedy, blood-sucking, internet ruining, self proclaiming SOBs.

    All in all, i didn’t get the feeling that people are constantly pushing their stuff at the conference. Putting your name and the name of your company at the end of the presentation is not considered to be pushy.

    Were all the presentations worth the time and the money ? Definitely not. But i guess that happens on every conference. I guess that if you are coming to a conference to learn affiliate marketing, you are pretty much in for a disappointment. Networking and little nuggets of info is something im taking with me. Was it worth the money (not that i paid or anything) ? Time will tell…

  20. Charlie Kalech

    6/3/2009 at 2:57 pm

    CK –

    You asked “Why is a PhD world class shmexpert like Dr. Harlan Kilstein wasting his time at Affilicon imparting wisdom on n00bs when he can be at work making billions of dollars daily selling crap on the Internets?”

    Dr Kilstein had a launch going off as he was attending affilicon so he was “making billions of dollars daily selling crap on the Internets?” Not to mention the long-tail passive income he probably has in place.

    Don’t you get it? These are automated systems. Once they are set up they launch and relaunch and email people and process transactions without him having to be there.

    In a professional capacity, yes I found Dr. Kilstein to be generous and selfless, despite his own self-demotion and reputation. I know he gives away a lot of time and advice to others – and yes you can claim that he (like many marketers) give something away for free to entice, lure and sell. So are you going to stop going to Supersol because they send you coupons to lure you into their store?

    My personal encounters with him in a professional capacity have been pleasant, rewarding and I have learned tachlis knowledge that help me serve our clients better (I’m not an affiliate marketer, not going for the big win, but serving a niche client base with real value in Web design and promotion for almost 20 years).

    If something is good and of value, you want more of it and I, for one, started off skeptical of Dr Kilstein as a snake oil salesman but after attending two of his seminars at Affilicon, I found gems of real value in what he said and am looking forward to hearing him again in Jerusalem Monday night. I have no doubt that he will speak to everyone who attends with a genuine desire to help them succeed and deliver real value toward that end.

  21. Debra Askanase

    6/3/2009 at 2:57 pm

    Wow – what a discussion to jump into! I attended the conference based on the rave reviews that I heard from last year’s attendees. I’m not interested in affiliate marketing programs for myself, though we use the “affiliate” concept in social media all the time – we ask people to connect us to each other, vote for things (like best blog, best story, etc) to win things – it’s similar concept. (That would have been an interesting analogy to have heard at the conference, btw.) I have to say that I felt like everyone was trying to teach me the best way to make quick money: buy and sell domain names, build links (“one presenter even said “this is a little black hat”…come on!)and since I’m in social media that just grated on me. Social media is about real connections and community – so really, it was only when I attended the social media panel (thanks, Miriam!) and one about video sharing (again, social media) panel that I didn’t feel like I was being sold a bag of tricks. So, what did I get out of it? I learned about SEO and the importance of links. And, as at any conference, reconnections and connections and great conversations. Worth it? Not for that cost of admission. Those are my two cents. And now, I’ll wait to be bombed by all the commenters to follow.

  22. froylein

    6/3/2009 at 3:13 pm

    Did they sell anti-rheumatism blankets and coffeepot warmers on the side?

  23. neyne

    6/3/2009 at 3:31 pm

    TBH, I hated Harlan’s presentation on Adwords. It came across as whining, complaining rant coming from someone that thought that the fact that he is paying Google money should be enough for his websites to be treated like they are quality when they are apparently not. First he complains that Google Guidelines are not specific or clear enough and when he gets a really long, detailed letter from Google, describing what is really wrong with his and similar sites, he complains that Google is dictating his business model. You can”t have it both ways. I didn’t like his style of presentation, i didn’t like the message he conveyed. Is the fact that he uses the word “moolah” supposed to get me to think of him as a current, young marketer ?

  24. Harlan Kilstein

    6/3/2009 at 4:05 pm

    Dr. Harlan Kilstein and his ilk are the death of the Internet…. I’d rather live under a bridge and eat garbage than do that for a living. Hey! I hear selling heroin is also pretty profitable!

    I just love it when people who don’t know me, never met me, and don’t have a clue as to what I do post about me.

    My name is Harlan Kilstein and I flew to Israel to speak at Affilicon on my own dime. I paid for my flight, rent-a-car, hotel, etc. I was not paid to speak. I didn’t sell any products or services at the show.

    So why did I come?

    Because “baseball has been berry good to me.” I’ve done well in Internet marketing and believe anyone with the desire and mindset can succeed in succeeding on the Internet in a pretty short time.

    At Affilicon, dozens of people came to ask my advice. I spent hours talking, listening, and sharing with people for free.

    I didn’t come to network. I came to give.

    I’m an Internet marketing consultant and help people increase the amount of money they make on the Internet.

    I didn’t come to Israel with the idea of making money. Frankly, most folks here can’t afford my services.

    The good Lord has been very generous to me and I believe in giving back by sharing my knowledge.

    I’m not an affiliate marketer per-se but if I had to start all over again, that’s what I’d do.

    How long does it take to make money as an affiliate? Seriously, a couple of weeks.

    Can you make money overnight? It’s possible.

    But I’d rather build a serious business which takes time.

    So why don’t people succeed making money on line:

    1. They have no clue what they are doing.
    2. They have a terminal case of RCV (Reticular Canal Vision) and can’t pull their head out of their posterior long enough to see what’s going on around them.
    3. They didn’t get proper training or mentoring.
    4. They executed so poorly they lost money when they were counting on a quick score.

    I’ve trained hundreds of people to succeed on line.

    I know thousands of people making an honest living online.

    Here was the number one problem at Affilicon (and I told this to Itay Paz).

    At my first session, I asked how many people in the room make more than $100,000 a year online.

    No one raised their hand.

    Most people were near beginners and there were no sessions aimed at that market.

    So CK, ready for the challenge?

    Everyone is going to witness it right here.

    I’m going to be in Jerusalem for a few days. Bring a check made out to the GIOH Weingarten Orphanage for $100
    and I’ll give you a couple of hours and show you how to make money on line.

    At the end of the day, YOU DECIDE whether I’m a scammer and of that heroin pushing ilk.

    If you think I gave you value, mail the check to the orphanage.

    If you think I’m a bullshirt artist, tear up the check and let the poor orphans starve.

    So you have nothing to lose.

    Now in the states, I get around $1000 an hour for consulting. Here I’ll do it for free.

    Just respond here whether you accept my challenge. Bring a laptop, bring your buddies, whatever.

    But you have to agree to shut up and listen, not prove to me how smart you are.

    For the details of where to meet, (I’m seriously fond of the Coffee Beanery) contact me @drkilstein on Twitter.

    Now the ball’s in your court.

    Go on whining, or sit down and learn how to build a business.

    Your move.



  25. Sam Michelson

    6/3/2009 at 4:15 pm

    Like Neyne I was also a panelist at Affilicon.

    Many of the companies and individuals at Affilicon market plain ole websites for real companies (summer camp websites, contact lens websites, wedding announcement websites, etc.) We don’t all sell clickbank ebooks using long sales pages. (I personally am better at buying ebooks than selling them – I started my business 6 years ago largely as a result of reading an Ebook I bought for $50.)

    Before dismissing the concept of learning about online marketing, it is worth noting that legitimate businesses need to understand basic SEO and PPC in order to do business online. It is ignorant to think that you can operate a business with an online component without understanding the ins and outs of online marketing.

    Lastly, In my experience, online marketers are unusually helpful to other people in the field – it is very common to share newly discovered information with colleagues even at competing companies. Knowledge is a currency – you bring your discoveries to the table and exchange them for those of your peers.

    A few years ago several Search Marketing companies mostly in the Jerusalem area actually set up an SEO Circle – monthly meetings at various locations during which each company presented a topic that they knew very well. In several cases the information presented was cutting edge. I have not seen this sharing of secrets in any other industry.

    To those who might characterize the search marketing industry based on your perception of a specific subset, I recommend a chill pill or a perhaps an ebook on how to produce and market chill pills.


  26. froylein

    6/3/2009 at 4:21 pm

    Eggwarmers, too?

  27. Salty Droid

    6/3/2009 at 5:13 pm

    Along with not having ANY useful information {as CK so succinctly pointed out} many of these Internet Marketing “gurus” have shady and suspicious pasts.

    Please take a look at “Dr.” Kilstein {who DOESN’T have a PhD by the way} in action. bit.ly/qpl4T

    He’s not a nice man :: He’s not a spiritual man :: He’s not a loving man :: And he most certainly DOESN’T know anything about the Internet worth paying for.

    Thanks for letting me speak. >>bleep

    The Ball is in YOUR court Kilstein ::

  28. Harlan Kilstein

    6/3/2009 at 5:24 pm

    I do not have a PhD.

    Never claimed it.

    Ed.D. dickhead.

  29. froylein

    6/3/2009 at 5:33 pm

    And there shows the true nature of the altruist.

    The appropriate person to address this has been informed.

  30. Shell

    6/3/2009 at 6:51 pm

    My gag reflex kicks in nearly every time I see Harlan Kilstein claim to be doing anything for truly “humanitarian” purposes. How utterly ridiculous.

    His $100 challenge above? Seemingly nothing in it for him, right? No, he’s simply being slick Kilstein–and it would just be a standard investment. An investment as in the PURCHASING of trust, which he could simply exploit later to sell his shallow infoproducts to people who are insecure and vulnerable, or simply greedy.

    Harlan Kilstein is trying to divert skeptical attention from himself by posting rambling, say-nothing commentary here. But let’s not make it too easy for him to play that little game. Keep in mind, he’s really a bully at his core.

    Kilstein epitomizes all that is wrong with internet marketing and the so-called “gurus” who want your money but pretend to be “your best friend” in order to break down your buying resistance. None of them are really your “friend” of course. It’s all theater.

    Some people foolishly “buy into” Kilstein’s “act” because of his relentless posturing. But pull back that curtain, and the self-proclaimed “wizard” is actually just a shrunken little man who’s really pretty hideous when seen under normal lighting.

    Kilstein is simply a regurgitator, not an originator. He uses loudness and arrogance as a cover to distract from the reality that he is hardly an expert at anything, except at being abrasive and mean. And he’s supposed to be an “educated” and “enlightened” man? There’s something a little “off” there.

    The “Salty Droid’s” comment above linked to a very interesting post, which in turn provided some even more fascinating links about the REAL Harlan Kilstein. None of it is pretty. He’s got a history, and everyone should be fully aware of it before parting with their money or potentially, their own personal integrity.

    I wouldn’t wish this self-proclaimed “expert” on anybody.

  31. ck

    6/3/2009 at 8:44 pm

    OK Dr. Krilstein. I was pretty harsh but you came back and responded in a civil manner. Also you stuck around Jerusalem after your gig so you get props for that. Send an email to jewlicious at gmail dot com and I will take you up on your offer. Or call me at 054 673 5873. We’ll see what’s what…

  32. Harlan Kilstein

    6/3/2009 at 11:31 pm

    You should have gotten my gmail address by now.

    Look forward to meeting you.

    Do you have a digital recorder? If yes, bring it.

    Let’s rock.

  33. SarKE

    6/4/2009 at 12:05 am

    Boys – shall I ref?

    will bring my old lifeguard whistle.

  34. Harlan Kilstein

    6/4/2009 at 12:43 am

    I told him he could bring friends.

    You can come if he likes.

    In a coffee shop to be determined later.

    Must have Wifi.


    PS. You must have grown a pair of big ones since our talk to qualify.

    PPS. Stop fishing for minnows and start fishing for whales.

    PPPS. NHL third man in rule – third man in buys the coffee. ;-P

  35. Miriam Schwab

    6/4/2009 at 12:51 am

    Wow, you can’t even go to sleep in this world of the web.

    Of course I have a few things to say:

    1. ck and Harlan, can I come too? I’m dying of curiosity to hear what you have to say.

    2. I’m with Sam and would have said what he did if he hadn’t: anyone dealing with online marketing of anything, whether it be a company, non-profit, book etc. must know about SEO and PPC if they want to get anywhere. I learned quite a few new things that I plan to implement for our clients, who are certainly not scammers.

    3. All in all I thought the conference had more pros than cons. The sessions that I attended (not enough, too busy talking) were informative, and the people I met were great. Oh, and the food was good too (I’m very shallow). I think that the conference showed that there’s a need for some kind of internet marketing conference in Israel, and so far this is the only one.

  36. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/4/2009 at 1:42 am

    I enjoyed Affilicon, thought some presentations were good, others less so. Pretty normal for a convention.

    I’m in for the coffee shop showdown; just let us know the time & place. I plan to arrive fourth.

  37. SarKE

    6/4/2009 at 1:58 am

    ck? time? place? you want harlan to urself or do we get to watch? as to third man rule…since i started ruckus, only fair i treat harlan and ck – liquid only (and dont go ordering a bottle of vintage, sneaky web person). andy and miriam – u start getting expensive…but the company much desired. if ck lets.
    re minnows and whales: my jury still out on which is which, and what criteria is for what makes a fish worth catching. Im still not convinced its all about money. Notoriety and influence and ability to change world still are currency in my eyes. In which case Kilstein V ck is a monster whale match, of differnt species.

  38. Ran Aroussi

    6/4/2009 at 2:20 am

    Where? Where?

    I had a great time at Affilcon (I was also a panelist like Neyne and Sam) and I just want to point out that imho affiliates are marketers and they can choose to promote a product “they believe in” or any product that pays well. Most people came there to network and the learning outside was at least as important as the learning inside the conference halls.

    Anyway, I loved Harlan BECA– USE of his attitude and not despite of it. As he mentioned – he’s here to give: Most attendees can’t afford to hire him, so at least they get to here him speak.

    Harlan – YOU’RE THE MAN!

    SarKE – It was great to meet you. We’ll defiantly talk soon.

    Sam – always a joy!

    CK – have a coke and a smile and forgive me for being such a complete wanker…

  39. SarKE

    6/4/2009 at 2:26 am

    no one needs to shut up. thats the beauty of this discussion and the Jews as a people. Play nice, Ran. even tho i just met you. Why? Because I said so. See – i learned smtg at Afilicon. 🙂

  40. Ran Aroussi

    6/4/2009 at 3:28 am

    That’s nice… editing my comment… Really big of you!

    I thought that part of the “beauty of this discussion” is that everyone have a say.

  41. ck

    6/4/2009 at 3:48 am

    Ron. I am a true humanitarian thus I will forgive you for being a wanker and telling me to shut the fuck up on a Web site I run. For the record, Ron’s actual last sentence was “CK – have a coke and a smile and shut the f’ up…” It’s not likely that Ron would have admitted to being a wanker and I was just having a bit of fun at his expense.

  42. ck

    6/4/2009 at 3:51 am

    I actually wrote that last comment before I saw your response! Sorry Ran. Seriously, you can tell me to shut the fuck up any time you like without fear of having your comment edited. I was just having fun.

  43. Ran Aroussi

    6/4/2009 at 3:54 am

    CK – my f** comment was sort of a joke. But seriously – what about affilicon made you so mad?

  44. themiddle

    6/4/2009 at 4:22 am

    For the record, if ck learns how to make a lot of money from Jewlicious, The Middle is going on strike. In fact, if that happens, The Middle is going to attend Affilicon 2010.

  45. Charlie Kalech

    6/4/2009 at 4:31 am

    Love the convo

    Sam/Miriam – the SEO roundtable is a different version of what we are trying to do at Jerusalem Web Professionals. We have had SEO Panels, Intimate gatherings with Barry Schwartz, etc. The difference (I think) is we do not want to make it an exclusive club but open it up so newbies can tag along. Some get lost when we have more specifically or technical conversations, but they don’t mind.

    I’d be happy to participate in a regular professional meeting, but I don’t like the idea of creating an old boys club. As long as it is open to anybody, count me in. Let me know what you think.

    CK (despite your great initials) This is a great example of why one should not listen to Lashon HaRa. The feathers you are spreading will be difficult to gather so please think before you attack someone or every publish something negative.

    I’ll be benefiting from hearing Harlan again on Monday night but I’d be interested in a coffee shop meet-up as well. CK – just be warned, don’t expect Harlan to be a nice warm and fuzzy guy (especially to you) but that does not mean he won’t want to offer you genuine help. Try to separate personal and professional.

    Harlan and all – Great case study for why “Listening” in Social Media is so important and how to turn it around and take part in the conversation!

    Ran – If you are not a Twitter expert, why did I pay to hear you speak? That is a summary of my disappointment in Affilicon.

    Harlan, Monte Cahn and Gary Beal were worth hearing. Other speakers spoke down to the audience so I and my colleagues were disappointed. Maybe Miriam is on track where we need an Internet Marketers convention or Sam’s Roundtable idea is a better venue, but Affilicon would be better if it offered more for those of us who know the business already and want to (always) learn more from our colleagues.

    Next year, I’ll be happy to speak on Twitter, Social Media, SEO, PPC, Web design or a slew of other topics to help raise the level.

    Whether we are minnows or whales, gurus or skeptics, thank you all for the conversation

  46. neyne

    6/4/2009 at 4:44 am

    I don’t think i spoke down to the audience. I actually got a pretty good response to my behavioral metrics in Google algo presentation.

    Can you give examples of speakers speaking down to the audience ?

  47. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/4/2009 at 5:28 am

    Branko, your presentation was terrific … next time you need to get a full slot, not just a spot on a panel. You’re one of the few speakers who brings an analytic approach to your presentations, showing the results of experimentation.

    I agree broadly with Charlie, although I may have enjoyed different speakers (I particularly enjoyed the one on link building – although there was little in there that was really new to me, it was thorough, clear, and got me thinking). The only two real disappointments for me were

    – the session on list building, and
    – the opening session on Twitter.

    Particularly the latter; after asking how many in the audience use Twitter, and having 80% or so put their hands up, it’s pretty pointless to give an hour or so on “What is Twitter?”

    As for the cost of the coffee shop showdown; I can swing a cup of coffee. I’ll have to check with my accountant before committing to a croissant.

  48. shira

    6/4/2009 at 6:25 am

    I want in on that coffee shop meeting. Now THAT’S something I’ll schlep my a$$ to Jerusalem for!


  49. ck

    6/4/2009 at 6:42 am

    Wow this is getting a little out of hand…

    If we’re going to have an audience then we can’t really do it at Coffee Bean. There’s a place that’s a 5 minute walk from coffee bean, near the Jaffa Gate with Wifi, a nice setting and ample room and quiet for whatever y’all have in mind. Many of you are already familiar with Bulghourji. Let me know what you think. Now for some response…

    Ran: I’m glad or I hope that you realize that everything was done in good fun. I’m not mad at Affilicon. I never went. I’m dismayed however by what I perceive to be an entire culture based on the notion that the Internet is a great way to make easy money. I’m annoyed at self proclaimed experts who are experts because they say they’re experts. I’m just annoyed.

    That having been said, please don’t read anything I’ve said as saying that the entire industry without reservation is full of shysters and hucksters! I’m willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, hence my willingness to take time off of my busy schedule to entertain Dr. Kilstein’s proposal.

    I’ll even go one further and suggest a 20 shekel donation of everyone that attends and that no matter what happens, the funds be disbursed to the orphans.

    Because it is about the children after all…

  50. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/4/2009 at 6:48 am

    Maybe PresenTense would be willing to host this cage match?

  51. Sara Young

    6/4/2009 at 7:04 am

    I am an affiliate marketer who makes a full time living online. I might not make $100,000 a year (yet), but I do pretty well for the number of hours I work (I’m a stay-at-home mom).

    I don’t lie, and I won’t sell a product that I think is bad in any way.

    In fact, I like to design my websites so that they help people.

    And because I help people, they buy from my sites.

    And after they buy, many of them will email me and say thank you.

  52. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 7:19 am

    Is Jewlicious really becoming a platform for that? If so, I’m out.

  53. BizB

    6/4/2009 at 8:05 am

    People like Harlan are successful in part BECA– USE of their outspoken personality (Which is why I personally think Harlan does it to model Dan Kennedy.)

    While I thought that The Google Speech was a bit, uh, just a way of using a “hot” topic to bring the crowd around to what Harlan wanted them to consider- which was unrelated to Google at all if you think about it-

    I think that he has alot of knowledge to impart (Salescopy, NLP, Internet Marketing, Product Launches)…

    and I think that this publicity, while (and I don’t know if) it’s causing Harlan, and by extension, Itay, any grief, it’s time to realize that the people have spoken- Harlan answered with a fair, public offer- and there really is no reason to turn this thread into a little kid crybaby waah-fest.

    I don’t agree with everything Harlan said on stage. but, I do plan to attend on monday night, because I do believe he has alot to impart.

    And what part of Harlan’s presentation taught me the most? the $100 bill at the end taught me something…

    but then again, I don’t do PPC and was at that presentation just for the fact that I wanted to hear him speak…

    I’m looking forward to wherever the match is. Do you think we need security, or will Harlan just do some mind control on all of us?

  54. dahlia

    6/4/2009 at 8:20 am

    I have to say that I’m totally lost on this one. Will someone please call/email me or post a comment that explains all of the above in non-web2.0 terms… i.e. johnny wants to sell choclate and uses the unternet to do it, and bobby showshim how, but freddy doesn’t like the way bobby does it – that sort of thing. thanks! :o)

  55. SarKE

    6/4/2009 at 8:21 am

    As Rob Lowe said all those years ago in St. Elmo’s…This is totally outta hand. Cool. all thats missing from this thread now is a definitive when / where.

    this was a tru freedom of speech exercise and so much fun 4 me personally. respect to everyone.

  56. Shimshon

    6/4/2009 at 9:22 am

    What a bunch of whiners.

    Perhaps there is just a touch of jealously in all the comments above? Just maybe?

    The people that I spoke to that went to Affilicon (my wife went so I got to watch the kids for 2 days) who actually know what they are talking about and make serious money on the Internet got a lot out of the event. What did they hear that CK et al missed? Or what did they *listen* to that the others closed their ears to?

    Making money online is really easy. Making big money online is not easy, but those that make some see that it is possible, and probably much easier than doing it by building an offline business. Or by working 9-5 for 40 years.

    But it does take work, training, and practice, lots of practice. In the end, the person who succeeds will be the one who finds a way to give more value than s/he charges for to as many people as possible. Money is just the way of keeping score on how many people you have helped.

    Got that?

    If you want to stop whining and plunk down some money to get REAL information from a guy who (I was told by a reliable source) was head-and-shoulders above just about all the other presenters at Affilicon, come hear Harlan Kilstein speak in Yerushalayim on June 8 at 6PM:


    You get what you pay for, though this time you will probably get a lot more than that.

    Oh, and I am an honest Internet Marketer who has been making money online since ’98. Never quite enough to drop my consulting business, but enough to know that it is real, and how to avoid the garbage too.

  57. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 9:36 am

    For your consideration, there are people making even bigger money from other jobs.

  58. ck

    6/4/2009 at 11:10 am

    Shimshon. I’ll ignore the “whiners” comment and the accusation of jealousy in the interests of civil dialog. Of course there is money to be made on the Internet. There’s also money to be made selling cheap crap imported from China or wire hangers or waste disposal etc.

    But it does take work, training, and practice, lots of practice. In the end, the person who succeeds will be the one who finds a way to give more value than s/he charges for to as many people as possible. Money is just the way of keeping score on how many people you have helped.

    So buy something for x and sell it for x+y. Awesome. Ordinarily one would have to go to Wharton or Yale for such insightful advice! And we’re not making money really, we’re helping people! Mamish Gevalt!

    Listen Shimshon, I’m not interested in a pissing match with you or with Dr. Krilstein. I hope your event is a great success and people learn lots and lots of new and interesting things. I have some fundamental issues with the industry but I am open minded and am happy to give the good Doctor every chance possible – especially since he was civil and suggested a tzedaka related activity.

    I hope that you and everyone else here that commented did not take my concerns as a personal attack on their integrity and credibility.

  59. Harlan Kilstein

    6/4/2009 at 12:49 pm

    Hey CK,

    Since I’m new to the blog, I had no idea I was talking to Mr. Important. Looking forward to our meeting Sunday.
    11:30 work? Need time for yoga.

    Come with what you’ve done in the past that didn’t work.

    Any domains, urls, ppc campaigns, web sites etc.

    The “challenge” at the OK corral was to work with you. If people want to watch that’s fine. I love to perform. However, the main thing is to fulfill my challenge.

    Like an idiot, I didn’t bring a check with me but just for showing up, I’ll give a thousand bucks to the orphanage. I’ve visited it and was impressed.

    Could you post the address of the place? I haven’t been in JM in five years.

    Also, while I have your attention. I’m at the Inbal. Can anyone recommend a good power yoga place for me? We’ve got to establish priorities.

    Peace Love and they better have good coffee.

  60. Salty Droid

    6/4/2009 at 1:11 pm

    Not-Doctor Kilstein,

    Could I get those clichés wrapped in Bacon?


  61. ck

    6/4/2009 at 2:19 pm

    OK Harlan. Let’s kinda be clear here. I don’t need anyone’s help with anything Internet related. I build Web sites, create digital content and do online PR for clients and I’ve been doing it since Mosaic was in beta. Jewlicious doesn’t sell anything except for a few t-shirts. We have some banner ads to pay for our server etc. and we run a pretty successful Festival every year in Long Beach as well as other related events. Our traffic here is good.

    So here’s the scoop as it were. I believe in creating content that’s relevant to a specific constituency, be it readers of Jewlicious or buyers of a client’s products or services. I don’t create content based on the dictates of an algorithm. I firmly believe that a Web page will organically get the traffic it deserves and while we do a certain measure of search engine optimization, it’s really very basic. We focus on community building, sharing and long term viability.

    I think it’s clear you and I have fundamental differences in uh… philosophy and the only thing I am into is hearing you out. For the kids. I think we can organize a meeting where whoever wants to attend has to make at least a 20 NIS donation to the orphanage and we’ll listen to what you have to say. I feel compelled to do this despite being advised by some folks not to because of the very generous $1000 donation you have offered to make.

    So if you’re into it, I’ll pick you up at the lobby of the inbal at 11 am on Sunday and we’ll head to this venue I was talking about by Jaffa gate. They have wifi and coffee and it’s kinda pretty. And anyone who wants to join can – or we can restrict it to whatever # makes sense. We can then waz poetic about our different philosophies. Or something.

  62. And Roid

    6/4/2009 at 2:24 pm


    It’s amazing just how fat a perverted loser like you will go for some thrills. I looked though your site well and did not find a shred of truth.

    and its nice to see how you delete any comments that are not alter egos of yourself.

  63. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 2:36 pm

    BizB and And Roid are the same person. So much for either’s cred.

  64. Salty Droid

    6/4/2009 at 2:40 pm

    Oh there IS truth … and there is more coming. Believe me Kilstein … there is MORE coming.

    I’ve never deleted a comment. Nor will I ever.

  65. Harlan Kilstein

    6/4/2009 at 4:26 pm

    CK I don’t understand:

    This was what I wrote:

    I’m going to be in Jerusalem for a few days. Bring a check made out to the GIOH Weingarten Orphanage for $100
    and I’ll give you a couple of hours and show you how to make money on line.

    At the end of the day, YOU DECIDE whether I’m a scammer and of that heroin pushing ilk.

    If you think I gave you value, mail the check to the orphanage.

    If you think I’m a bullshirt artist, tear up the check and let the poor orphans starve.

    So you have nothing to lose.

    and you responded:

    OK Dr. Krilstein. I was pretty harsh but you came back and responded in a civil manner. Also you stuck around Jerusalem after your gig so you get props for that. Send an email to jewlicious at gmail dot com and I will take you up on your offer.

    Now all of a sudden, it’s become a 3 ring circus but you are really and online marketing wizard and we have fundamental differences.

    Honestly, I’ve visited your blog maybe once before. I didn’t even know it was your blog and you were Mr. Jewlicious.

    I have no clue as to what your marketing philosophy is and other than pulling smoke out of thin air, you have no clue as to mine.

    To my knowledge, correct me if I’m wrong, we’ve never met or spoken. I’m not aware if you’ve ever attended any of my seminars or purchased any of my products.

    So how exactly do you know my marketing philosophy so well? Remote viewing?

    And I you don’t need help, why did you agree to my offer to come and help you? Why didn’t you immediately respond with “I’m superman in disguise and I don’t need your help.”

    So what exactly is the point of Sunday? Meet with a couple of dozen people with different skill levels and interests and dazzle them?

    What’s the agenda – other than coffee.

    And what disappoints me most of all is the fact that not one person has responded with a cool place to do yoga.


    CK- DM me on Twitter.


  66. Salty Droid

    6/4/2009 at 4:42 pm

    I’m so surprised that Dr. KnowNothing isn’t going to show up to a debate with a rational human being.

    It’s a good idea to back out Harlan :: He would have totally HUMILIATED you and your BS in under 10 minutes. And I say that *confidentially* without ever having met either one of you.

    Liars must also be cowards by necessity.

  67. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 5:00 pm

    Alright now, this is getting ridiculous.

    Commenters that have never been around before pop up and praise someone to the skies in strikingly similar style. That someone, an alleged online marketing whiz, has never heard of the legendary CK – who has more than once been portrayed by renowned newspapers / magazines -, (condescendingly) offering “help” to one of the most influential people of J-web as even CK’s critics and competitors admit; showing off with a proposed donation; after not having rejected summaries of his marketing philosophies above as incorrect now claiming CK had no clue as to what those philosophies were about; back-paddling on the offer to “meet” and aiming to remove the conversation from the public square after CK has shown to be independent-minded and not easily impressed and a critic not related to Jewlicious in any way has refused to have himself shut up by bogus supporters of that someone; now displaying patterns of passive-aggressive discourse.

    And as for the yoga place: this is Jewlicious, the world’s leading Jewish blog, not the Jerusalem Yellow Pages.

  68. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 5:07 pm

    Sorry, Droid, I only saw your comment after I’d posted mine.

  69. Salty Droid

    6/4/2009 at 7:34 pm

    Froylein :: I’m not sure why you are apologizing, but I decline to accept it. My comments are almost always deleted immediately … so I’m thrilled at the rare chance to participate in an actual open forum.

    Kudos to you Jewlicious Jews!

  70. Zag

    6/4/2009 at 9:29 pm

    Harlan Kilstein’s “target market” is people who just got their first computer and want to make money on “the internets.” In other words, NEWBIES with CASH. So it’s no surprise he would be PETRIFIED when unexpectedly faced with an intellectual WHO CAN SEE THROUGH HIS B.S.! (That would be you, CK.)

    Of course Kilstein is NOT going to meet with CK. Not ever. (Actually, I was surprised CK would waste his time with Kilstein, but given the charitable element, that was pretty noble.)

    Salty Droid is completely right. Kilstein is a know-nothing and NOT a nice person. And there is certainly nothing “redeeming” or endearing about Kilstein’s “attitude.” It would be hard to accept his foul personality even IF he were some sort of actual expert, which he is not. He is, as they say, just another “poser.”

  71. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 10:31 pm

    Droid, I apologised as had I read your comment before, mine would probably have addressed yours in some way, but you’re definitely right; CK can see through that kind of business; as he emphasized above, we believe in original content on Jewlicious (and give credit where credit is due). We owe much of our independence to not having to rely on making cash of this site, and I suppose that is part of our real success.

    Zag, I guess greed paired with the naivety in believing that big bucks could still be made on the internet in little time and without any proper qualifications lure people that must be pretty clueless about the matter in question. Also, people apparently still are easily impressed; it’s the same kind of people that will argue that the $40 plastic food container bought at a friend’s food container-part actually keeps their food fresh so much longer than an average food container from a supermarket. People don’t like admitting they have been fooled by reasoning themselves into the “quality” of the product they got. Women appear particularly susceptible to this, houswives even more so as that kind of “business advice” gives them the positive feedback and encouragement they crave and often do not get for doing housework, raising kids etc. They wish to measure up, but they certainly wouldn’t want to be considered less savvy than their male or working female peers. The tricks are cheap. As an insurance sales agent I know told me, you can sell anything to a housewife above thirty with a little flattery and giving off the impression of an expert authority. His particular trick is to ask women how old they are, and if he gets the, “You don’t ask a lady that response”, will proceed to “guess” their age (about ten to fifteen years younger than he actually thinks they are), and he claims at that point the deal is sealed. His success in sales proves him right.

  72. shira

    6/4/2009 at 10:36 pm


    I have to respond to the Tupperware comment – I was at book club and a gf brought in her 25 year old tupperware which had just broke to another GF who sells Tupperware. It was replaced for free. That’s why you get Tupperware. It lasts, you can replace one piece if you lose it, and they will replace it literally forever. (And no, I don’t sell it – I have bought it though, their products are great)


  73. froylein

    6/4/2009 at 10:50 pm

    Shira, the initial amount you pay for a TW product would cover the expenses for a lifetime-supply of a generic brand plastic food container of that kind; that’s why they can do the “generous” return & replacement policy. The majority of buyers won’t return their items, and that is their winning margin.

    But thanks for proving me right.

    (The “selling through a friend” is TW’s key to success as it’s more difficult to reject a friend – particularly if that friend can get a whoppin’ plastic colander out of it. As for myself, I invest in real quality and get WMF stainless steel.)

  74. Zag

    6/4/2009 at 11:50 pm

    Froylein, you have a good point.

    That is: the false expectation alters the perception and ultimate reality. Because of Kilstein’s arrogance and posturing, people somehow think that there is more there than there actually is. It is an illusion of anticipation.

    There is also a reason that Kilstein and his ilk tend to associate together: they “build each other up” to external people. It is all very circular. This works to systematically overwhelm the doubters.

    The result is: few laymen (or women) have the courage to argue with a vocal, formalized group of “marketing experts” in an “organized” setting. “It must just be me” the victims rationalize, when in reality they are getting little or nothing of value. Most simply walk away quietly and poorer, and the new victims come along without any warning from the old victims. This is the sad reality of most internet marketing “guru” operations. It just goes on and on.

    Kilstein professes to be an expert in many things, but the fact is, he is merely a dabbler. Anyone can be a dabbler. Anyone could be Harlan Kilstein, if they had his same level of arrogance. I would not recommend it though.

    The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of useful marketing and business information is readily available on the internet, entirely for free. There is seldom need to pay for it. Instead of paying huge money to so-called “marketing experts,” people would be better off learning to more effectively search the internet. Then, all this vast knowledge will be available to them at no cost.

  75. slerner

    6/5/2009 at 1:27 am

    I want to come just for the fireworks. Does that make me a bad person?

  76. ck

    6/5/2009 at 2:11 am

    Well, fireworks were never planned. I don’t know what we’re going to do on Monday. Kilstein and I are having Shabbat dinner together tonight. Maybe we’ll discuss it and maybe we won’t. We’ll see. We both have fundamentally different perspectives and are not likely to change each others minds. The sort of dynamic described by zag and froylein is also what I see. I wonder how many seasoned Internet professionals would be willing to pony up $800 or $250 or whatever in order to get the sort of advice being sold at these marketing events. In my experience the answer is very few and for obvious reasons.

    But I do have to give the guy props for stepping up to the plate. Most would have been content to merely resort to polemics and name calling and ultimately, that’s not so good for the Jews. Stay tuned I guess…

  77. Harlan Kilstein

    6/5/2009 at 2:41 am

    I still don’t know how everyone is such an expert on my marketing philosophy.

    It wasn’t on my agenda to even change someone’s mind.

    I thought it was Sunday – not Monday. Although it doesn’t make a difference to me.

    I’m just chillin and hanging.

    And as far as spending money on seminars and products –

    There’s a lot of crap being sold on how to make money online.

    Most of the stuff is repackaged garbage which can be found for free.

    But there are some people who I consider their material gold.

    Some seminars are pitch fests. The only goal is to sell you their shit – some times at super inflated prices to take advantage of the audience.

    I never play that game. I don’t need to.

    I don’t care about the fancy cars, boats, or jet planes.

    My little car is fine, I get sea sick, and I hate flying.

    What does turn me on (my Ed.D is in Education) is watching the lights come on in peoples’ eyes when the get it.

    And an even better thrill is when they get it and take action on it.

    Nothing better.

    So for all the people who think they know me, STFU.

    At least CK dares accept a Shabbat invitation from the Dark Side.

    I suspect it wasn’t only to get a free meal.

    Right now, I’m just chillin and enjoying hanging in JM.

    And for those who want to get to know me… @drkilstein

    And yes, I will try to sell you something. ;-P


    Off in search of a latte. (And a yoga class)

  78. dahlia

    6/5/2009 at 3:44 am

    I feel that t-shirts should be made. II have this vision of a coffee shop s[lit into halves, with shirts that say CK, and ones which say Mr. Kilstein. And going along with the seriousness of all of the above comments, how about we change the forum… to mud wrestling? If this does occur, ck, you owe me a pictures. :-p

  79. BizB

    6/5/2009 at 3:49 am

    how much will the “i love hashem” Tees be sold for at the event?

  80. BizB

    6/5/2009 at 3:52 am

    and another thing…

    the reason this thread is getting so many comments from people that don’t comment here, is that this thread is tagged on twitter with the affilicon hashtag…

    just a FYI.

    (do you get the mail send to wordpress@jewl... I send you something via email, not for publication. thanks.)

  81. ck

    6/5/2009 at 6:02 am

    you can send me whatever u like at ck@jewlicious.com

    no i love hashem shirts will be sold. Buy it online if u must…

    no mud wrestling. Sheesh!

  82. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/5/2009 at 6:40 am

    Hang on … no shirts, and no mud wrestling?

    So why should I come?

  83. Harlan Kilstein

    6/5/2009 at 7:55 am

    I wonder how many seasoned Internet professionals would be willing to pony up $800 or $250 or whatever in order to get the sort of advice being sold at these marketing events. In my experience the answer is very few and for obvious reasons.

    The first Internet marketing event I attended when I was a clueless rookie was John Reese’s event on traffic.

    It cost $4500 to get in the door.

    What I learned at the seminar has made me millions of dollars.

    Then again, I’ve attended seminars for $49 that weren’t worth a dime.

    You’ve got to find who’s the real deal and who the BS artists are.

    To brand everyone online a scammer is just silly.

    To brand every marketer as honest is just as naive.

    Not everyone is a Lavan. Not everyone is an Avraham.

    But to mix the two because of a hunch is simply beneath contempt.

    Since this “event” has wandered from its purpose, I’ve taken the liberty of selecting a few people who have approached me for help and I’m going to help them grow their businesses.

    You’re welcome to watch.

    But to debate whether all Internet marketers are really peddlers of porn or penis extenders is a waste of my time.

    If this is a challenge as to whether I can teach someone to make money online quickly and ethically, I say BRING IT.

    On the other hand, if this is a pointless debate on marketing philosophy, I might just puke on your shoes.

    As I said on the stage at Affilicon – I’m not about theory, I’m about results.

    Anyone who cares about getting better results online, you’re invited.

    Anyone who just wants to masturbate their ego and prove people can’t make money online are correct. THEY can’t.

    Just be respectful of the people who want to learn and to grow.

    And if you have a website and it’s not performing or you don’t know how to pick a niche, get higher CTR, increase the conversion rates, etc etc. Bypass Google, use SRDS, etc. etc. I’ll walk u thru the steps.

    Looking forward to Shabbat dinner with CK.

    I might just bring him over to the Dark Side over dinner.


  84. SarKE

    6/5/2009 at 10:55 am

    Before I start Shabbat, I’d just like to say that this thread has been way educational. I admire everyone’s passion for what they do, and also for what they won’t. In the end I think there is something to learn from everyone, there’s no way around that. I stand by my original sentiments: I’m glad I went to affilicon, I learned a lot, I am skeptical and wary of many of the ways things are done in the marketing world (not new to the net),I’m not a tremendous fan of smoke and mirrors to make $, and I in my oldskool literary way cant help but feel that truly excellent content / quality product and genuine / organic social networking and skill is more important to me than zillions of $ or followers…. But a few thousand of each wouldnt kill me. I dont understand all the anger but I am so glad people had the outlet. God bless. And I was serious when I thanked the people who taught me how I might come up with some modest, honest earnings on my own scale, even if their way is far more bombastic than I am comfortable with. With that, I hope this thread will rest on the 7th day

  85. ck

    6/5/2009 at 11:03 am

    I never said everyone is a scammer, but really, how many people at Affilicon are going to make back that $800 they spent? My experience is less than 10%. I’ll bring a friend’s web site for you to evaluate. We’ll see what the difference is between your advice and my advice. No namby pamby puke inducing philosophy (sorry muffti).

  86. This is BY FAR the best thread i read in years :))

    Harlen i loved ur sessions…hope u enjoyed ur time here in Israel.


  87. froylein

    6/5/2009 at 12:01 pm

    This is so phony and shallow that it is almost offensively banal to point this out. Will we get to hear / read more empty catchphrases by a non-expert enjoying the platform and advertising he’s getting on here?

  88. I didnt know i had to write 500 words post to be considered as a real poster.

  89. froylein

    6/5/2009 at 12:42 pm

    I wasn’t referring to you, no worries.

  90. Zag

    6/5/2009 at 2:49 pm

    CK said: “how many people at Affilicon are going to make back that $800 they spent? My experience is less than 10%.”

    I think you were being optimistic, but I fully concur with your sentiments.

    I’ve sold millions online (not air-filled info products, but dull, competitive household products which are much harder to sell without the built-in puffery element) so I think I’m a keen observer.

    I credit ZERO of my most useful experience to any of the “modern day gurus” or seminar banter. In fact, those seminars (by necessity of their broad-appeal) MUST be geared to the lowest common denominator. There are few significant “secrets” revealed in those seminars; most everything is already “out there.” Seminars are typically over-priced “feel good” vacations. They are a distraction from actually DOING. Anesthesia for the hopeful but tentative.

    In fact, most of what has helped me most was derived from freely available online discourse. There is MUCH good info out there!

    I can appreciate the basic desire of people who want to be “gurus,” because they are looking for a livelihood. However, the reality is that these people are mostly middlemen/women standing between you and the information you seek, and simply charging you a toll to get past them.

    I say you rarely need to pay that toll.

  91. mia

    6/5/2009 at 4:51 pm

    Shay wrote “This is BY FAR the best thread i read in years :))”

    Clearly, You need to come to Jewlicious more often…

  92. peter bordes

    6/6/2009 at 8:34 am

    Thank you for the post on the show. Our MediaTrust team members really enjoyed the show very much. I think Itay has done and excellent job of developing a good platform for the emerging markets outside the US.(which are very important markets)

    Congratulations to Affilicon and thank you everyone for your wonderful hospitality to our @mediatrust team.


  93. ck

    6/6/2009 at 3:38 pm

    So yeah, me and Kilstein had it out over Geffilte fish at Shabbat dinner. We’re gonna meet with whoever wants to show up on Monday at 11:30 am SHARP at Cafe Aroma at Mamila. Details to follow…

  94. Harlan Kilstein

    6/6/2009 at 5:29 pm

    You drink Arak like a wuss.

  95. themiddle

    6/6/2009 at 7:02 pm

    Gefilte fish? And arak?


  96. ck

    6/6/2009 at 7:33 pm

    You only offered one shot. My synagogue has Arak shots before mussaf. Also, you teach soccer Moms how to make $ on the Internet. We know who the wuss is.


    See ya Monday. I’ll be brown bagging a bottle of Arak in order to make your lecture more bearable.

  97. Miriam Schwab

    6/7/2009 at 12:02 am

    So let’s see…this thread has managed to speak lashon hara against: Madoff’s victims (who were mostly either greedy and/or stupid, i.e. not as sophisticated as CK); 30+ moms who will buy anything if told they don’t look a day over 25 (i.e. not as sophisticated as froylein); soccer moms who apparently are the lowest of the low and if you help them make money, you’ve really stooped (but let’s not cloud this issue with the fact that most of the people in the internet marketing industry are men – I would say about 75-80% of the participants at Affilicon were males, as were 95% of the speakers – but of course it’s all “soccer moms”); all speakers at Affilicon who are greedy, blood-sucking, internet ruining, self proclaiming SOBs (thanks to Neyne for putting it so eloquently); and Harlan Kilstein who many, without knowing anything about him, have judged to be a scamming so-called internet marketing expert.


    Oh, gotta run. There’s a nice young salesman here who wants to sell me a bridge, and he says I don’t look a day over 25. And then, after I take my kids to soccer, I have to buy an ebook about making money online. Of course, all this is after I take a break from sucking the blood of the innocent who attended Affilicon. I’ve got a busy day ahead of me.

  98. Shira

    6/7/2009 at 12:51 am

    Remind me to never piss off Miriam.

    Perhaps all of this is a way to market both Jewlicious and Harlan?


  99. Harlan Kilstein

    6/7/2009 at 12:51 am

    In addition to the Monday morning session with Jewlicious, I’m doing a free Internet marketing session at the Inbal Monday night at 7:30.

    Free – Translation – No Dinero. Nothing will be sold. Nothing to buy. Chinam. (As in Sinat Chinam but that’s more about this thread).

    If you have a website and it’s not doing well OR you have questions, just come. It’s a Q&A format.

    I’d love to say make a donation to the Orphanage but then some people would probably say I’m making a buck on the deal.

  100. froylein

    6/7/2009 at 1:17 am

    Miriam, not quite. I elaborated on why and how it’s easy to sell to a certain demography. I do not need to label myself an expert in sales to do that. The emphasis is on myself as thanks to Google, I found that no noteworthy business publication provides any information about Kilstein; all other sites that reference him either copy info by him or are so strikingly identical in vocabulary and syntax that they are likely his.
    Lashon hara is spreading gossip not yet publicly known; what I (and others) claimed above can be known by anyone who admits to a little reflection on the issue at hand. It’s not hidden information that could portray anyone in a bad light. And there also are cases where speaking out is justified even if it sheds a negative light onto someone.

    Shira, I’m not getting anything out of Kilstein, and I’m actually upset that this shady figure gets to promote himself on here. Considering the high number of readers Jewlicious has already got and that we’re not afraid of, pardon my French, pissing people off to the extent that they vow never to read Jewlicious again, we do not need Kilstein to promote us. The fact that he had never heard of Jewlicious and CK before tells me that he is anything but an expert in the field he claims to be an expert in. And that is only just the tip of the iceberg.

  101. Zag

    6/7/2009 at 1:44 am

    Everyone should take at least a few minutes to learn more about those they allow to influence their lives.

    A simple Google search on Harlan Kilstein provides this additional background information, for example:


    That’s just for starters, of course. If you take what you discover there, you can expand the search into other directions as well.

    Given what you’ll find via the above link, you’ve got to wonder if his current “pseudo-congeniality” routine is just another chapter out of the “mind control” handbooks he has studied. It’s clearly a non-sustainable routine though, as you can see from some of his jarringly venomous comments on the sites at that link.

  102. Zag

    6/7/2009 at 1:53 am

    Incidentally, I’m not necessarily endorsing any of the external commentary you’ll find (easily) that criticizes Kilstein on various matters. I’ll leave that to others to discern. However, I do think Kilstein’s own responses (on those various external forums) say a LOT about his character. Based on that alone, I would question his place as an “expert” or someone suitable to be anyone’s advisor.

  103. Harlan Kilstein

    6/7/2009 at 1:54 am

    I found that no noteworthy business publication provides any information about Kilstein; all other sites that reference him either copy info by him or are so strikingly identical in vocabulary and syntax that they are likely his.

    OMG, you figured out my master plan. Fly to Israel, get Jewlicious to right about me, and just capitalize on sneaky marketing to people who:

    1. aren’t in my demographic
    2. don’t have the money for my services
    3. know more than I do

    I should have known better that to think my master plan would sneak by the astute readers of Jewlicious.

    Just think, a blog I barely new existed is now the corner stone of my marketing plan to people not in my demographic.

    Sometimes, a good belly laugh is all it takes and Froylein, I assure you, all the serious Internet marketers who see this are laughing (as am I) at you.

    Refuah Shleima.

  104. Harlan Kilstein

    6/7/2009 at 2:08 am

    Incidentally, I’m not necessarily endorsing any of the external commentary you’ll find (easily) that criticizes Kilstein on various matters. I’ll leave that to others to discern. However, I do think Kilstein’s own responses (on those various external forums) say a LOT about his character. Based on that alone, I would question his place as an “expert” or someone suitable to be anyone’s advisor.

    I’m not endorsing this stuff.

    I don’t even have the decency to contact the fellow and get his response.

    It’s just my Pavlovian response that when I see shmutz I have to repost it as automatically true.

    It doesn’t matter whether he even posted that stuff, whether it’s true, or any of the above, I just like to repost shmutz.

    Thanks Zag for sharing your inspirational thoughts.

    If you reverse the letters of your name, it gives insight into your personality.

    A lot of hot smelly air.

  105. ck

    6/7/2009 at 2:22 am

    Uh I was kidding about the soccer mom comment… didn’t you see the winking smiley face icon? The evil Dr. Krilstein and I had a lovely shabbat dinner and he employed his evil Jedi mind tricks by pretty much agreeing with most of what I said! The cad!!! Others may have significant issues with him but I like to give folks a chance and much to the dismay of my Satan worshiping neighbors, he does not in fact seem to be the devil incarnate. Oh well… So we’re meeting at Cafe Aroma in Mamila on Monday at 11:30. I’m bringing Arak. Because I like Arak.

  106. themiddle

    6/7/2009 at 2:39 am

    For the record, I’m a big fan of soccer moms.

    I’m also a big fan of women who want to make extra money on the Internet. Especially women over 30.

    I’m also in favor of affiliate marketing and never buy any electronics without first checking tech coupon sites that redirect me to some excellent prices.

    I also don’t give a hoot whether Kilstein is or isn’t a scammer.

    And I don’t like arak. Or gefilte fish.

    Compared to our old debates about converts and non-Orthodox Jews, this thread has been a walk in the park on a sunny day with a pleasant breeze.

  107. Miriam Schwab

    6/7/2009 at 2:47 am

    Shira – LOL! Beware the wrath of Miriam.

    Here’s more wrath. Sorry I can’t help it…

    Froylein, maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t really foresee how any of the above demographic bashing will help any of us in life, unless someone here is a slimy salesperson who wants to try their luck at flattering housewives to make a sale.

    As for you CK – somehow I missed the winking smiley face. Maybe because it didn’t really seem like a joke, but I may be wrong since my sense of humor tends to evaporate in the face of chauvinism.

    And since we’re all here having such a good time, I thought some of you may be interested in seeing my presentation from Affilicon. It’s about “5 Things Social Media is NOT.” I played devil’s advocate, which I guess suits a blood sucking devil-Affilicon panelist like myself:


    Now I will try to take deep breaths to overcome my wrath and regain my sense of humor.

  108. Zag

    6/7/2009 at 2:49 am

    Harlan, take a pill. It’s not about anything BUT YOUR INTERACTIONS with people. Don’t dilute the point.

    What I was and am saying is: your impulsive outbursts DO NOT REFLECT WELL ON YOU. Whatever good you feel you are doing or trying to do can be impulsively invalidated by your own sudden, polar opposite behavior. Resist the self-sabotage!

    Your last two responses (to me and Froylein) underscore this.

    You purport to follow NLP, yoga, etc., and various lifestyle elements that at their core are based on concepts of love, kindness, communication, etc.

    At the same time, you exhibit sudden and substantial outbursts of rage that DO YOU NO FAVORS. Why do you indulge that unruly “little voice” inside you that causes you such grief? You must know by now that it is no friend of yours.

    Much of the skepticism here is in direct correlation to your past interactions noted elsewhere.

    Simply accept the mixed reviews, and criticism for any mistakes/ill will from the past, and do so with constant humility, sincerity, and compassion. Vanquish the rage.

    The old way just doesn’t work, and truly never did.

  109. Zag

    6/7/2009 at 3:14 am

    CK…it appears you have been assimilated…Kilstein has employed hypnotic charm techniques upon you. If only he would employ hypnotic charm techniques on EVERYBODY (consistently), then…no problemo! 🙂

  110. Harlan Kilstein

    6/7/2009 at 3:57 am

    Shira, I’m not getting anything out of Kilstein, and I’m actually upset that this shady figure gets to promote himself on here. Considering the high number of readers Jewlicious has already got and that we’re not afraid of, pardon my French, pissing people off to the extent that they vow never to read Jewlicious again, we do not need Kilstein to promote us. The fact that he had never heard of Jewlicious and CK before tells me that he is anything but an expert in the field he claims to be an expert in. And that is only just the tip of the iceberg.

    Excuse me, I just peed my pants reading this. How is Jewlicious in any way related to what I do? And what drug are you taking to think I was promoting you?

    And speaking of pot heads, Gaz pops in with brilliance:

    What I was and am saying is: your impulsive outbursts DO NOT REFLECT WELL ON YOU. Whatever good you feel you are doing or trying to do can be impulsively invalidated by your own sudden, polar opposite behavior. Resist the self-sabotage!

    Do you ever pull your head out.

    Here you and Froylein hide behind nicknames while I post my name.

    How brave you are to hide behind your nome de guerre!

    I take everything you say very seriously.

    In fact, I’m thinking of hiring you as a consultant.

    Your brilliance just shines on.

    How could I have missed it in the past?

  111. froylein

    6/7/2009 at 4:05 am

    Kilstein, thanks for proving me right. You’re an irrelevant non-expert when it comes to marketing who will rather get passive-agressive than prove himself worthy of listening to. I didn’t say you made Jewlicious the cornerstone of your marketing activities, but you have pretty obviously made use of the forum here. I’m somewhat convinced that about any price would meet your requirements. Real money does not boast, and class is not a facial cream. Your allusions to “serious internet marketers” is just another subtle flattery directed at the people you try to charm – those that pay to get your advice or have paid you to get your advice. If I pay my dentist $1k to explain to me what the life of a dentist is like, that might include some interesting info on the life of a dentist but doesn’t make me a dentist. I yet have to see any piece of information of value that cannot be found on the internet for free or published in affordable books written by people that actually have a degree in economics, let alone the legal issues that come with an international marketplace.

    Miriam, it’s not so much bashing as enhancing awareness. Have you never had a case of buyer’s remorse? I certainly did, and it doesn’t hurt to familarize yourself with marketing strategies and the skills and tricks of advertizing. I just finished teaching a class on analyzing and evaluating the content of visual ads. I’ve got a lot of friends with a post-graduate degree in “Computervisualistik” or “Informationmanagement”; those innovative tracks of studies are concerned with IT, internet marketing and the psychology thereof on a highly professional level. That is four years of university studies plus extensive internships, classes taught by reputable professors of IT, economics, law, visual arts, and psychology, and actual marketing experts. That is the concurrence you’ll have to put up with.

  112. froylein

    6/7/2009 at 4:10 am

    Without even so much as the glimpse of a guilty conscience, I can say that I’m not involved in any illegal activities, e.g. smoking pot (which is not legalized in Europe, but under certain conditions its use will not be persecuted).

  113. Richard Kligman

    6/7/2009 at 8:55 am

    Wow, really don’t want to miss this event. Anyone driving from Bet Shemesh?

  114. Richard Kligman

    6/7/2009 at 11:32 am

    Excellent! I got a ride and am very much looking forward to this. It’s been 21 years since I last met with (gosh what do I call him after all these years?) @drkilstein and it should be fun to see him again. This time though he can’t send me to the bench 🙂

  115. Harlan Kilstein

    6/7/2009 at 1:42 pm

    No Richie, I can’t send you to the bench. I can however kick your ass down a flight of stairs. See ya big guy.

  116. Richard Kligman

    6/7/2009 at 2:13 pm

    lol, I see your picking up right where we left off

    see ya tomorrow Rabbi

  117. Zag

    6/7/2009 at 2:50 pm

    Kilstein: you are one mean, vindictive, angry person.

    Perhaps you can hide it occasionally over dinner when the drinks are flowing, or when you are dancing on stage and receiving misspent money for your non-act.

    My analysis is that you know little about marketing, a lot about posturing, and much about tearing people down.

    This is certainly nothing anyone should reward or pay you for.

    Since you are conducting an open public “questioning,” it will be a good opportunity for people to ask you some VERY difficult (and extremely uncomfortable) questions.

  118. Salty Droid

    6/7/2009 at 3:15 pm

    I appreciate an active civil discourse … what is more important to the vitality of society? Probably nothing.

    However, there are lines that cannot be crossed. Mr Kilstein, and many other “Internet Marketing Gurus,” are on the wrong side of that line. And quite obviously.

    The VICTIMS of these predators are REAL. It’s not some abstract debate about the comparative value of different marketing styles. REAL people are being exploited and manipulated.

    I’ve pledged to spend {at least} one year of my life trying to slow and stifle Internet Con Men … and to helping their victims. This is the 5th month of the project, and I can already say this with a HIGH degree of certainty :: They AREN’T stealing from the mythical “Soccer Mom,” nor are they capitalizing on people’s “greed.” They are selling FALSE HOPE to the HOPELESS. Most of the victims I talk to have very tragic stories. They’ve been beaten, and beaten, and beaten, and they are just desperate to believe that things COULD possibly get better.

    If you are going to meet with Mr. Kilstein, talk with him, drink with him, blog about him, etc. Make sure you WIN .. make sure he ends up looking a FOOL … and sulking back to his rat’s nest in tears. Anything less, and you are standing look-out while he beats old ladies about the head and takes their wallets.

    “Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.” ~~ God

  119. themiddle

    6/7/2009 at 3:33 pm

    For the record, Kilstein is on here using his real name and the folks who are treating him worst than a child murderer are not using their real names. That gives them an advantage but it also calls into question all of their claims.

  120. Bizb

    6/7/2009 at 3:37 pm

    So its’ tomorrow,

    Monday at 11:30 am @ Cafe Aroma at Mamilla.

    Can anyone give me the address?

    Do you know what number of people are planing to show up?

  121. Salty Droid

    6/7/2009 at 3:41 pm

    I have revealed all of my relevant details … with the exception of my name and address.

    I receive disgusting threats on a semi-regular basis … even though I’m sure they are all empty and hollow … it hasn’t encouraged me to put myself on Google Maps.

  122. themiddle

    6/7/2009 at 3:55 pm

    I understand that you don’t want to reveal who you are and you will notice I also don’t use my real name on this site although ck does. My point is that you’re making some extremely harsh accusations against a person who is using his real name. It’s hard to accept your claims. For all we know, you could be someone who used his system, lost money and are embittered. For all we know you could be his last girlfriend and you had a rough break-up. You’re not just commenting on his product, but you’re actually hounding the guy, tracking his every move and then coming here to tell us, using a moniker that keeps you anonymous, some nasty things about him. It’s not really acceptable behavior. You can get away with it because it’s the USA and because this is the Internet, but just be clear that it’s not acceptable and anybody who reads what you write should be very dubious about everything and anything you say.

  123. ck

    6/7/2009 at 3:55 pm

    The address?? It’s in the Mamilla Mall. In front of Jaffa Gate. Whoever shows up shows up. If those instructions are too difficult, I have an ebook you can purchase for only $29.99 that will direct you to the event. If you still get lost there’s a no questions asked money back guarantee! Visit my web site for more details at doyouknowhowto... ! See ya at Aroma!

  124. Richard Kligman

    6/7/2009 at 4:57 pm

    That was very funny CK, looking forward to meeting you as well.

  125. Salty Droid

    6/7/2009 at 5:01 pm

    Middle :: I can’t contest your point. It’s the clear downside of the anonymity. Also, my tone is unorthodox and highly venomous which tends to cause confusion. Perhaps revealing myself and taking a more professional tone would aid my cause. I don’t know.

    However, I’m not making “accusations” against these guys … I’m just pointing {boisterously} to their ON THE RECORD duplicity.

    I’m not asking anyone to believe me. Look it up. You think “Finger Healing” is a legit product? Are Kilstein’s comments on Failed Messiah {and elsewhere} within the bounds of decency? Was it acceptable for him to tell people {privately} that I’d published a lie about him murdering his child?

    I’m going to go with NO. On all counts.

    I won’t sully your thread with my comments anymore. It’s rude to fan flame wars on forums that don’t belong to you. Thanks again for letting me have my say.

  126. froylein

    6/7/2009 at 5:25 pm

    Droid, by all means, please keep on commenting. Kilstein has shown his venom and rage above and by avoiding points that were addressed, he showed that people hit the proverbial nail on the head.

    Middle, there are more people than Salty Droid out there stating the same. The story is public record.

  127. Richard Kligman

    6/8/2009 at 8:33 am

    Good time had by all! Great to see you again @drkilstein and great to meet you David, Sam and everyone else! And thanks for the ride and the talk SARke

  128. Sam Michelson

    6/8/2009 at 10:08 am

    I am happy I went – very interesting. Nice bunch of people.

  129. themiddle

    6/8/2009 at 10:23 am

    That’s it? Can we get some details please?

  130. ck

    6/8/2009 at 10:55 am

    There wasn’t anything really to discuss. Krilstein was genial and pretty much agreed with all my critiques of the industry. The existence of self professed experts with limited knowledge and depth? Yup. The existence of shady operators? Yup. Most people don’t manage to take the time to effectively use what is taught to them? Yup. The importance of compelling content over mere keyword tweaking? Yup. The reality that making money on the Internet requires deep knowledge and hard work? Yup. The reality that most of the knowledge one could glean from events like Afilicon can easily be found online for free? Yup. So what could I say? Were people interested in these particular aspects of Krilstein’s knowledge? I dunno. But Krilstein stepped up, gave freely of his time and expertise freely and totally did not act like the devil incarnate.

    So I got to meet Sarke the new Jewlicious writer of this very post for the first time, met shiraabel and some of the other local Internet marketers etc. They all seemed very nice and so I didn’t assault anyone. Just had some Arak with Talya. Even Charlie had Arak! Arak shots in the morning is good.

    Sigh. I need to get into a fist fight and soon. Any takers? Double points if you’re a self described Internet marketing expert…

  131. Charlie Kalech

    6/8/2009 at 11:08 am

    At the risk of spoiling my image as “the nice Jewish boy of Web design”: CK gets credit for helping me discover the two great tastes that go great together – Ice coffee and Arak mmmm.

    Kilstein went around and gave selflessly helping each person tweak their site from novice to those with more experience in the field. Granted, he did this with attitude but after all, we put him in the position of our mentor. He even consulted with CK asking his opinion on the design of several sites before offering his own and they always seemed to agree on the basic ways to optimize a site to increase conversions.

    It was a good serious group of professionals (Dr. Kilstein included) who pooled our knowledge to help each other.

    I’m looking forward to seeing this again tonight at the Inbal at 19:30 and look forward to such meet-ups in the future.

  132. Charlie Kalech

    6/8/2009 at 11:14 am

    Forgot to mention – We actually did pass around a plate and we put in money for the orphans!

  133. Sarke

    6/8/2009 at 12:41 pm

    Was gr8 to enjoy the civility of the face to face with every kind of Jew (tx rk for that formulation.) glad to meet those I’d never met and see those I’ve known since forever. I agree it was a cool forum. Have never had arak for breakfast before. Kilstein, Israel is good for you.

  134. Bizb

    6/8/2009 at 5:01 pm

    I was at both events today…

    Harlan was great.

    It was four hours of valuable free advice (didn’t see any arak, though).

    Harlan mentioned the title of today’s email to his list…

    Harlan Attacked In Jerusalem: Urgent

    It IS the truth… ain’t it? 🙂

  135. Shimshon

    6/8/2009 at 5:18 pm

    I attended from beginning to end both this morning’s not-mudfest and this evening’s gathering at the Inbal. While the morning’s event was a small group of about 10 Jewliciousers and professional web/marketers, the event tonight had about 50 people and went for 3+ hours.

    One by one, Harlan critiqued (destroyed) the sites of just about everyone at both events. Including 2 of mine, and I have 12+ years of experience and have made PLENTY of money online. I haven’t seen someone clobber so many people since those kung-fu movies I watched as a kid. Well, maybe since the last Rambo movie I watched.

    It is rare to see someone with SOOOO much knowledge in so many different fields related to internet marketing. There were some recurring themes in his advice but there was something new for just about everyone, no matter what they were coming with. On one occassion he said declined to answer a question based on the fact that he wasn’t and expert in the field in question, which only served to emphasize that he apparently IS an expert in all the other fields that he discussed.

    Both events were totally free. If someone wants to attribute Harlan’s blowing 5 hours of his very valuable time to help others as a nefarious plan, go for it. It will be worth a good laugh. (Hint: He seems to enjoy the notoriety as being good for business so don’t try to claim he did it to clear his name. In fact he probably things I am weeny for defending him.)

    For all the people that attacked Harlan for his being a non-expert, phony, trickster or worse, you owe him a huge apology. In fact, I think you owe us all an apology for your pathetic negativity and slander based on complete ignorance. You should be ashamed.

    I doubt any of those who attacked Harlan while hiding behind avatars and knicknames to protect their anonymity deigned attend either event. If they did, they certainly did not succeed in stumping him. But I am sure they would say they “didn’t learn anything”. Uh-huh.

    I am waiting to hear one apology from someone, anyone.

  136. Shimshon

    6/8/2009 at 5:25 pm

    One more comment on a side issue:

    It is silly to say that the Internet marketing experts shouldn’t be charging for their knowledge, since most/all of it is available for free online.

    It IS true that most (not all) of the information that the experts teach can be found free online, somewhere, if you can find it. It is also true that one can learn an awful lot about anatomy and medicine for free online. Or go to a good library and study up. That doesn’t make one a doctor, and when you want a brain surgeon you still go to a brain surgeon, not someone who read a lot of med books, and certainly not someone who DIDN’T read any books but is confident that he could find the information for free online.

    An expert is someone who has the information at his/her fingertips and usually has put it into practice. When those people can share their knowledge in a clear way that helps those that know less, their are worth their weight in gold and they deserve to get paid accordingly.

  137. Shlomi

    6/8/2009 at 6:23 pm

    Dr. kilstein knows his business i have attended to his second meeting today and got overwhelmed of the amount of knowledge this man have to share.

    Dear jewlicious people, you were wrong when attacking him with no real reason.

  138. Zag

    6/8/2009 at 6:43 pm

    Last comment, I promise:

    Interesting to see Kilstein’s personal friends parading in here promoting him so gratuitously. And of course reminding everyone how “good” and “generous” he is (be sure to check the links above and note his dark side, such as the blog comment where he asks an abuse victim “how does a dead baby taste”).

    For anyone ‘impressed’ with Kilstein, PLEASE, go visit some online marketing forums. It is NOT hard to find good FREE resources online. You’ll be amazed how quickly you’ll become far more of an expert than Kilstein ever will be. And it will cost you nothing–plus the people you encounter are most often GENUINELY nice and helpful with NO EXPECTATIONS in return.

    I don’t believe there is anything generous or giving about Kilstein. Everything is calculated to produce some result, even if it means DELAYED profits.

    He is simply playing “the game.”

    In closing, consider this public twitter exchange today between Kilstein and his promoter above (bizbooks):

    @drkilstein todays talks were amazing. I can rattle off 30+ amazing and valuable things that floored me. you are owed a BIG apology.

    @bizbooks Don’t hold your breathe waiting for an appology. All talk no brains on the blog.

    I disagree. There ARE brains on this blog. The fact that not everyone fell for Kilstein’s act proves it.

  139. froylein

    6/8/2009 at 11:00 pm

    Hah, Zag, that’s hilarious. If anybody deserves an apology, then it’s our regular Jewlicious readers that have had to put up with this shtuss. Oh, and Zag, you’re of course welcome to keep reading and commenting on Jewlicious.

    And Shimshon, you’ve just shot yourself in the logical foot as Kilstein is not an economist by his education; you will see a doctor for medical aid but a former teacher for business? I wonder how Kilstein could ever become a teacher to begin with seeing the quality of his English and his choleric outbursts on here…

    As for intelligence, the fact alone that BizB tried to pose as two different people here, thinking it could not be determined, sufficiently speaks for the capacity of his brains.

  140. Andy Levy-Stevenson

    6/9/2009 at 1:42 am

    I went to the lunchtime event, paid 20 NIS for an orphan, and the orphan still hasn’t been delivered!

    I always thought all you internet marketing gurus were scammers, but now I have proof!

  141. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 1:45 am

    that’s right.

    anyone that “defends” kilstein after having met him after the jewlicious challenge and acctually “fell” for it after only four hours of time spent is obviously deranged.

    its obvious.. duh!

  142. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 1:46 am

    Dear Gassy Hot Air and Froylein Dirtbag.

    You too cowards didn’t have the balls, the moxie, and last but not least the integrity to show up.

    I’m not surprised.

    It’s your fake personality that you hide behind.

    And guess what.

    After dozens and dozens of people came and spent time with me, not one of them would agree with you.


    They all walked away with a tremendous amount of information.

    But not you two.


    Because the two of you are a bunch of pathetic losers.

    It’s what you are.

    It’s who you are.

    And it’s who you will always be.

    And the more you write about this, the more true you know it to be.

    The people who had a shred of ethics came and listened.

    But like the pathetic little worms you are, you stayed behind chirping and sniping.

    It’s okay.

    After the two events, it’s just down the two of you forced to masturbate each others fragile egos.

    The two of you live your live as vampires appearing only to try and suck someone’s blood to nourish the bile you live for.

    It’s okay.

    Because without your puny efforts to stir up the shit, the event would not have been half as successful.

    People came from hours away to hear what I had to say because of the two of you.

    I couldn’t pay for the work you did on my behalf.

    Every time you open your mouth to put your foot in it, someone else bought my products.

    In fact, even though I didn’t sell anything at these events, my email lists grew by the hundreds because of the controversy you generated.

    Yes, I will sell these people something and enrich their lives (and my pockets) but the two of you will stay in the sewers of the Internet shouting match proving to each other how brilliant you are.

    Thank you for making my events a success.

    In an email I sent out yesterday about your behavior on the Jewlicious blog – I made $9000. YES!

    Would you please keep it up!

    I think I’m going to quote you guys in the next email. It will do even better.

    Froylein and Gassy, thanks again.


    PS. Since I made so much money yesterday, I’m going to increase the money I give to the orphanage. Thanks again.


  143. Richard Kligman

    6/9/2009 at 1:49 am

    Actually Kilstein was not a teacher (at least from what I know) he was the Principal of a yeshiva High School and I can assure you that he was the same back then as well. An arak drinking, Billy Joel listening, ruthless son of a gun. And I mean that in a good way. If he was just a “teacher” there was no way he would have been able to handle the likes of me and Nussbaum in a single year. In fact he was not able to handle me as I was always one step ahead. I really have some great stories, but the truth is this was 20 years ago and I respect his past to keep it in the past. To be honest I did not go because I needed the good doctors help (which he admitted to me) I went to really just see how he was and to bring some smiles back and memories of the man who was my biggest friend or opponent for more than 5% of my life. Just wish I had more time to talk with him and help him out a bit more… but then again, he couldn’t afford me 🙂

  144. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 1:54 am

    just wondering.. if you didn’t show up, how do you keep claiming he is a fraud– when people actually get off their chairs and went out to check out the claims?


    I gained.

    I now know about different twitter times and crowds. (yes, that is powerful information.)

    I now know about why scripts that personalize the names can mess you up. (i never would have realized that and thought I had a great idea, which Harlan shot dead.)

    I now know alot more about video marketing.

    and I met a lot of good people there, of all stripes.

    I’m thankful for this thread- otherwise I would not have known about the event last night or yesterday noon, I would not have been there…

    feel free to “disprove” whatever I said– it’s a free country (sort of….)


  145. Zag

    6/9/2009 at 4:45 am

    O.k., back by invitation only (thank you, froylein).

    Kilstein, you humor yourself. Perhaps you did not receive enough love as a child, so you’re shouting how great you are to convince yourself?

    Well, allow me to share “a thing or two” about reality, Mr. egotistical, self-appointed “expert.”

    I dislike bragging, but since you seem to constantly put yourself in some special class, let me reposition YOU. I’ve been marketing online probably longer than you have. I’ve sold millions (that is no typo). Frankly, I don’t care if you believe me or not, and you probably won’t because of your superiority complex. My Google bills alone would make your jaw drop (and there’s obviously a LOT there to drop). I’ve worked 18 hour days for years, and I soak up marketing knowledge like a sponge. If it’s out there, I’ve probably seen it or at least know where to find it. I can spot a “poser” a mile away. And you’ve flashed ALL ACROSS my radar with a huge sign that says “POSER.”

    I (or froylein) didn’t need to show up to your little “me fest” to know your act. I can confidently say I’ve seen PLENTY of it…all across the internet. Your rambling self-promotion posts on various blogs, your stale commentaries, overblown sales pitches, and your dry, monotonous youtube videos that say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Oh, and yes, I’ve even seen a copy of your less than impressive “book” (portfolio). I know substance when I see it, and I haven’t seen it in you.

    To be fair, you’re not 100% full of kaki, but 76% is enough for me to suggest avoiding vultures like you like the plague.

    Bottom line: Kilstein, you are targeting NEWBIES and people with very limited knowledge. People who are tentative, and simply want (but don’t NEED) someone to hold their hand. This is your bread and butter. To some of those people, what you say may SEEM new or instructive, but only because THEY haven’t run across this information previously. However, there are FAR BETTER, more qualified teachers AND resources that cost nothing. Yes, nothing. It is simply a shame that YOU sometimes get to these people (and their wallets) before they find this much BETTER, more substantial information!

    Your completely “out of your mind” rant above should be sufficient PROOF that you are NOT a clear thinking professional in any meaning of the term. Nor are you a particularly nice person underneath it all.

    Everyone should ask: if Harlan Kilstein is such a genius (as HE thinks he is), where does HE get HIS knowledge? Answer: the same way YOU can: from books and resources on the internet. He is no “natural” marketer. He simply repeats what he’s learned, and does so with tremendous arrogance. You can bypass the arrogance and keep your money simply by looking elsewhere. You don’t need people like Harlan Kilstein to succeed.

    I’m NOT here to tear Harlan Kilstein down, even though he does a good job of perpetually asking for it. In all sincerity, I am speaking up because I am very tired of people selling my fellow humans a “bill of goods.” I am disturbed that Kilstein and his club comes here to extract money from good people, and it bothers me deeply. Please do not fall for this, good people.

  146. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 7:33 am

    A school that would hire a principal that is not a teacher by trade is not a school any parent should send any kid to.

    As for you, Mr Kilstein, you’ve again given ample example of your poor manners, lack of self-control, your aggression and your basic lack of knowledge concerning the fields you profess to be an expert in when taken on by people that are not your willing following. I didn’t even have to get back to my contacts in Monsey to learn that much about you. You’ve put it here yourself for everybody to see. I hope you’re aware that your rants attempting at being condescending but failing in doing so due to a lack of verbosity and rhetorical skills reflect on your personality more than the many websites on which you reference yourself as an expert.

    A person desperate for a product is an easy customer, even if it’s just a crappy product.

    There are several reasons why I did not attend the event, including that I don’t live in Israel and have had sufficient proof of Kilstein’s despicable nature and non-expert state on here. Besides that, I pursue a job, one that pays. Just to give you an idea, and like Zag I don’t mean to brag, I’ve got original Chagalls hanging on my walls.

    And Kilstein, if you choose to quote me and make money of my words, my lawyer will contact you for an agreement on royalties.

  147. Miriam Schwab

    6/9/2009 at 8:20 am

    So yesterday I met this lawyer, and since he’s a lawyer and I know that all lawyers are liars and cheats, I knew he was too. Plus, anyone can find contracts and legal advice online, so how can lawyers justify charging ridiculous legal fees? Actually, thanks to the internet we can be experts in everything, so there is no one in the world who is more knowledgeable than anyone else and therefore there is no one worth paying for their services and/or advice, i.e. I don’t need advice or guidance from anybody on any topic.

    Equation used for this logic:

    Law profession = buncha+shaysters


    lawyer = shayster


    Legal info = available+online


    lawyer = as+knowledgeable+as+me+no+added+value


    legal fees = highway+robbery

  148. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 8:24 am

    Miriam, the analogy fails as lawyers have law degrees and must give solid proof of that before they are admitted into a Law Society and allowed to practice law in certain fields and in certain territories / courts.

    If a person that is not a physician professes to be an expert healer, then you have got an apt analogy to elaborate criticism on. Anybody with a bit of a string can pull out a baby tooth but you shouldn’t consult just anybody on fillings and anything more serious (even though you can buy DIY filling kits in the US).

  149. Miriam Schwab

    6/9/2009 at 8:32 am

    Froylein, solid proof of what? As if degrees mean anything. The doctor who went to sleep during surgery on that little girl a few weeks ago and the girl died – that medical degree meant a heck of a lot.

    I have a degree in English Literature, but my professional services are WordPress and creating what we call a “web presence” (of course, it’s scary to say that here because I can just hear the outcries: What? WP expert? You know nothing! We know everything and are SO much smarter than you). I didn’t go to WP or “web presence” university. My grandfather was a fantastic businessman in the electronic devices industry. He never went to school: spent his youth selling cigarettes to German soldiers during WWI in Poland to support his mother and siblings.

    Please – university is a place we go so we can get degrees because people take degrees seriously and will then give us jobs. Today I couldn’t quote Shakespeare to you if my life depended on it, but ask me about WP and I have plenty to say.

  150. Sarke

    6/9/2009 at 8:43 am

    Gee miriam, you should have been a lawyer. 🙂 I am a big fan of long discussions / free speech champion- plus I don’t want to overstep as a new jewly, but is there any way we can put this to rest? We are all very clever and can do this forever. We’ve all made our points at least twice. Any chance of latching on to a new obsession? Look! Over there! A soccer mom!u

  151. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 8:46 am


    I’m sorry, but I can’t possibly believe you– people with their real names are 995% more likely to lie then those that hide behind screen names.

    also- those that didn’t attend last night are obviously in a better position to state if someone they met knows or does not know a given topic much better then someone that “has sources in monsey they didn’t need to call”….

  152. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 8:47 am

    Gassy Smelly Hot Air posts:

    Last comment, I promise:

    But he immediately returns after I pull his strings. I make him perform like my puppet.

    His excuse for returning?

    O.k., back by invitation only (thank you, froylein).

    Now, still hiding behind his Gas moniker, he tells us that together with Al Gore, he invented the Internet and is a multi-multi-multi-millionaire.

    Gee, look at the race of people who believe you.


    And Froylein who couldn’t attend because she doesn’t live in Israel (but based on her rabid personality lives in a country where they tie their shoes in little Knotsies) didn’t need to come because she has Chagals hanging on her walls.

    Wow. There’s proof of your abilities right there.

    And like the bottom fishing slime buckets they both are, why bother checking the facts?

    Why bother to research my degrees? Where I went to school etc.

    Because, as the blind judge said, “My mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the facts.”


    But for all the people reading this blog, again I thank you guys again.

    I credit not only two more sales at tactic7.com to you this morning… I also credit several book sales to you as well.

    Yes, the name of my book is “Steal This Book” and you know it’s worthless because Gassy and Tie-Her-Shoes-In-Knotsies say so.

    Forget the pages and pages of endorsements at the beginning from the people I have made millions and millions of dollars.

    No. Just take the word of these two bitter pathetic creatures who need – compulsively – to have the last word.

    Lying and smearing are the tools of their trade.

    Gassy will look at the millions he made while Froylein will be buried with her Chagals.

    I’m proud of both of you. You’ve made me even more money today.

    Keep going my bitches. I have you well trained.

    Too bad I never managed to train you not to pee in your own cages.

    Maybe next time.

  153. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 8:57 am

    Miriam, the degree also makes people legally accountable; the average doctor does not fall asleep during surgery and if he does, he can be hold legally accountable. If you let yourself be treated by a not adequately qualified person, you’ll have a hard time pressing the same charges against that person than against a certified physician.

    English Literature, I’m sorry to say, is one of those tracks of studies you can pursue for private interests but will hardly ever lead to a career if you do not go on researching and lecturing at university or get into a publishing house as a proof-reader. Those limitations of profession choices are known from the start. That’s also why you cannot obtain a degree in English Literature over here but have got to study the more comprehensive Anglistics. (I would have loved to study archaeology, but the situation there is similar, so I’ll save that for retirement. 😉 )

    Back in the day, doing sales was easier with fewer restrictions, but with a rapidly growing global market with more and more legal implications, the online market in particular, it takes more than just some (alleged) experience and skills, and law and bookkeeping are just two aspects of that. Just scroll up a little to see that Kilstein didn’t know he will have to ask my permission to quote me and to have me agree on royalties, too, for making money of my lines. The do-ut-des principle of blogs on a quoting and requoting is based on mutually creating traffic. That appears not to be Kilstein’s intention but to make money out of my words. Were he an online marketing expert, he’d know that certain restrictions apply in such cases. Instead, he just behaves like a schoolyard bully. It’s a safe bet your grandfather would have found Kilstein despicable, too.

    I believe when you say you’re good at doing things in WP, but that you work in WP does not have the same legal implications as being an alleged expert instructor charging for the instruction. When you build a web presence, the customer will in the end see and evaluate a product and will pay or ask for additions accordingly. When you go about instructing people on business improvement, you do not just pay for the instruction but the hopefully eventual improvement. Now, if there is no guarantee for improvement, then it’s a bad deal unless you get a refund not only for the classes but for losses due to wrong investments and time wasted on something that didn’t show to be of profit. And if it’s only about the instruction, then the instruction is seriously overcharged, and customers should ask themselves what it is that will make them waste a considerable amount on something they could get for much cheaper or even for free by / from people way more qualified and, as we all could see above, of higher personal integrity.

  154. Charlie Kalech

    6/9/2009 at 9:02 am

    For the record Zag:

    When Dr. Kilstein was asked about buying certain products, he specifically said newbies SHOULD NOT BUY HIS PRODUCT or other specific products he mentioned in response to the question.

    He instead referred people to another site (with no affiliate link) where they could pay (yes pay for knowledge and guidance) a low monthly fee (under $40) to test the waters with a step-by-step guide.

  155. Charlie Kalech

    6/9/2009 at 9:05 am

    The link was stripped out.

    The site recommended was opportunity dot com (no affiliate link)

  156. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:05 am

    Oh, BTW, it spells “Chagall”. A little something akin to general education and decent manners couldn’t hurt if one wants to actually be successful in sales. We looked into your degrees, Kilstein, to see whether your education held up to the credentials you gave yourself. They do not.

    Sarke, I’m sorry your first big comment thread has turned into this, but I’d consider it irresponsible if we sold our readers short on this person and only just resorted to one-sided flattery of his persona and qualifications that, not only in my opinion, is ill-deserved.

  157. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:07 am

    Charlie, the spam filter may have caught your link; I’ll check.

  158. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:13 am

    It’s not in the spam folder. But a little Google search revealed to me that either side on the non-affilate information axis loads the other with praise. I should advise people to get a tad more independent information. Critiques of valuable guide books can be found in business magazines, which you find at newsstands or in larger libraries.

  159. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 9:16 am

    We looked into your degrees, Kilstein, to see whether your education held up to the credentials you gave yourself. They do not.

    Reading Miss Tie-Yourself-In-Little-Knotsies

    Share with us what you found about my degrees.

    Let us know the extensive research.


    Okay my trained Hanuman monkey, time to perform.

  160. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:21 am

    Kilstein, in contrast to what you may believe, our readers are capable of googling your name for themselves and are also smart enough to scroll beyond the sites that only list information provided by you. I think it is time for you to reconsider the tone you use on here.

  161. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 9:25 am

    Like I said performing monkey, share the research about the degrees you found.

    You just got nailed in a blatant lie.

    Since you are online you can just cut and paste it.

    Can’t you?

  162. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:31 am

    I can, but I’m not letting myself get bossed around by someone who is not capable of keeping up the social conventions of decent discourse. As I said, Google tells it all to everyone who needs to know, but maybe you wouldn’t like people to see what sites besides yours and those of your friends and affiliates reference you.

  163. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:33 am

    BTW, I’m not going to be buried with my artwork, but it has already been arranged that my various collections will be passed on to my heirs, and those may do with them as they please.

  164. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 9:36 am

    Still waiting for your extensive research to appear my trained monkey.

    Keep digging (a hole)

  165. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:39 am

    I’ll just let people google for themselves to find out more about you so nobody can claim I’ve been deliberately selective. Again, you might want to reconsider your tone as CK will likely not take kindly to that.

  166. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 9:49 am

    Right, sounds like you just got caught in a lie and you’re hoping CK will save your lying ass.

    Time to go crying to mommy.

    “Mommy, I got caught lying.”

    Don’t forget to get in the last word.

    Ring bell, Foylein posts.

    Pavlovian conditioning at it’s finest.

    Sit up. Roll over.

    so nobody can claim I’ve been deliberately selective.

    No one would ever accuse you of being selective.

    Just of deleting the facts.

    Laughing at you.

  167. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 9:55 am

    I’ve deleted Google? Wow.

    Seriously, Kilstein, reason has long since escaped your statements.

    I’m not hoping for CK to save my ass; I just gave you a heads-up that he doesn’t dislike his bloggers and good friends get insulted.

  168. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 10:36 am

    Than CK should choose his blogger and friends more carefully.

    He seemed to me a smart fella, he has a hands off policy and is just sitting back watching you bury yourself.

    Time for your Gassy tag team partner to leap in and try and save you.

    Is it really that hard to say you were wrong about my degrees?

    Oh my, but then you wouldn’t be perfect.


  169. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 10:58 am

    I’ve said all people need to know about you is out there on Google. I’ve never claimed to be perfect. Labelling oneself an expert or a guru doesn’t constitute as a degree. You stated yourself above you’ve got an Ed.D.; that’s not a PhD or a DBA.

    CK is currently not online, but what are you trying to imply by the “digging a hole” and “burying” allusions?

  170. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 11:18 am

    CK is currently not online, but what are you trying to imply by the “digging a hole” and “burying” allusions?

    You’ve dug a hole by claiming I deceived people about my degrees. Congratulations.

    You got cuaght in a lie.

    And you buried your reputation. Though other than your claim to artwork, I’m not sure you ever had one.

  171. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 11:25 am

    I didn’t say you deceived people about your degrees. Maybe that’s what you understood, but not what I have said. I initially said there are people with more apt degrees out there to teach marketing seminars and later on evaluated / elaborated on the meaning of such degrees.

    Also, I didn’t claim to artwork, but to own artwork.

    So you’ve just stated two untruths in one comment. Should we consider this quintessential to the quality of your reputation?

    And please, take a brush-up class on English grammar.

  172. Shimshon

    6/9/2009 at 11:31 am

    Forgive me for interrupting you two, but I have a suggestion to make.

    Since Zag is an internet zillionaire and froylein owns some paintings, I would like to suggest that they too offer their services to 50 or 60 people for free like Harlan did. I for one will be happy to spend some of my valuable time hearing what they have to say just like I did with Harlan yesterday. As an internet marketer who has made in the high 6 figures online (cummulative, not annual — I wish) I think I can fairly report back to the Jewlicious crowd on the results.

    In fact, let’s throw this open a bit: I am willing to meet or speak on the phone with any of the loudmouths above (you know who you are) and listen to what you have to say. Any format is fine. Over gefilta fish or coffee, phone, skype, chat, whatever. If necessary you can wear a paper bag on your head to protect your precious anonymity — I couldn’t care less.

    CK, you too, even though we met already and you no longer seem to hate Harlan. (Apology?). You seem like the real deal and I would be happy to learn from you.

    And I am even willing to pay in advance for the privilege like I was with Harlan, provided you give some actual proof of expertise in SOMEthing. Acceptable proof would be a big house, a fancy office with lots of sychophantic employees, or a known reputation for being awesome (like Harlan). Big houses or cushy jobs provided by parents count, but in that case you have to bring your parents.

    Chagalls on the wall do NOT count. I really don’t like a lot of his stuff. Sorry.

    I make this offer NOT because, unlike froyline with her high-paying job, I merely started my own business with employees and therefore my time is obviously valueless, freeing me up to blow time listening to people like Harlan.

    Rather, I look at it as an opportunity to learn something new from people who might have something to teach me, even if they are closed-minded and obnoxious to others while hiding behind noms-de-plume and avatars. It’s an investment.

    For anyone that wants to take me up on the offer, please contact me in Twitter (@shimshon), Facebook (facebook.com/p...) or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/i...)

  173. Richard Kligman

    6/9/2009 at 11:39 am

    Harlan, can you please tell the story of the monastery across from the school with the elmers glue? We need a good laughing break and that is one of my all time favorites you told. (man my memory can some times be scary) Oh, and Harlan was also my first computer teacher. Even though he was the principal he was the only one qualified enough back in 1988 to give the course. Line 10 “I love Harlan” Line 20 “Goto Line ten, line 3 run. Oh and who can forget Gennady’s I got power line.

  174. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 11:44 am

    Ok, Shimshon, a free word of advice: no swearing, no insults, no getting passive-aggressive, no twisting of truths, no showing of ignorance towards cultural achievements of others, no mockery, no lauding yourself online, and no condescending remarks will give a more positive image to any marketer who wishes to attract customers.

    And I’ve shared my services for free with hundreds of people from Monsey, Williamsburg, and Borough Park. I just don’t see the point in boasting about actually doing something for free if somebody is a true humanitarian. Just as little as I see the point in boasting about a donation unless one considers this an outstanding achievement.

    BTW, CK actually does have a known reputation for being awesome. Among hundreds of thousands of Jewish people. He has been referenced not only online but in various large circulation print publications.

  175. Zag

    6/9/2009 at 2:27 pm

    Kilstein: you are simply a childish, immature, underdeveloped, hollow person. Notice I didn’t use the word “man,” because you do not adequately represent one.

    You have zero civility. So I will respond as appropriate.

    You can call me whatever you want, but you are a dog for calling froylein what you did. And furthermore, you are badgering SarKE with tweets to defend you here. SarKE wrote a good informative article, and you cannot hold her accountable for the comments that followed. And besides, after your tactless, hateful words here, why would she want to? You should show her and others more respect, but then that is a foreign word to you.

    I have no motivation nor need to ‘prove’ anything to you because I’m NOT the one getting in everyone’s face and saying “GIVE ME YOUR MONEY…I’M A SHMEXPERT!” *YOU* are doing that. That makes you fair game to ANYONE on the internet that you blow hot air at. You are like a little boy calling attention to himself. Well, you got the attention! Now, live with it.

    By the way, you also SUCK at NLP. Did you just read the “overview” chapter and stop there before calling yourself an expert? Your false, child-like reframing of what others say is so ridiculously obvious it is laughable.

    To reiterate about your little “me fest” the other evening: I sincerely mean no disrespect to any attendees, but in addition to your biased FRIENDS and associates, you attracted the VERY people who are most likely to unknowingly waste their time with you. (People who may not be aware of the vast resources and information out there that is superior to what you offer and is in fact FREE for the taking.) So naturally, until they realize you are a POSER, they will think you know ‘something’ as little as it truly is.

    Harlan Kilstein, you are simply a shallow opportunist, unworthy of attention, respect, and most importantly, compensation. It is absolutely preposterous for you to claim that by virtue of your coming here and dispensing vicious, nasty comments, it somehow builds up your “business.” When was the last time you heard of someone entering a store, being treated like a dog, and then when others hear about it, MORE PEOPLE want to come into that store? That’s total foolishness, and it proves that you are a second-rate “business” person. Word gets around, although word about you has been around for years. More people simply need to know about it.

  176. Shimshon

    6/9/2009 at 2:43 pm

    froylein (can I call you Froy?), forgive my lack of gratitude for your free advice (which was obviously for Harlan and not for me, but I will let that slide), but you are missing the point. Being obnoxious is a great marketing technique. Surely you know this from US talk radio. Being obnoxious –> listeners.

    That is not the only way to do marketing. That is not MY way of doing things, and in fact I don’t approve of obnoxiousness in general (my comments on this post notwithstanding), but it is easy to understand why some people take that approach, either on purpose or just because they have a “gift” for it. It works.

    So far, rating your advice vs. the advice that Harlan gave me:

    Harlan: 1
    froylein: 0

    Ok, really it is more like

    Harlan: 100
    froylein: 0

    So far I have NOT been overwhelmed with loudmouths taking me up on my generous offer to be their willing disciple. Do I need to post my contact info again?

  177. Shimshon

    6/9/2009 at 2:54 pm


    Just for the record, I never met with Harlan before yesterday and never had even one phone or email conversation with him before or since.

    I am not one of his buddies (but I’d like to be) and neither were 95% of the other people who attended yesterday’s events.

    Even though I have about zero respect for you based on your behavior here I would be happy to have my mind changed if you put your time where your mouth is and contact me via the info in my earlier post. CK met with Harlan…

    Almost no on

  178. Sara Young

    6/9/2009 at 2:58 pm

    Harlan – if you are still here I just wanted to thank you for everything I learned yesterday. It was very educational and helpful.

  179. Shlomi

    6/9/2009 at 3:00 pm

    I guess a business man cannot do business unless he has a degree in business. 🙁 And i thought i can be someone some day.

    Tell it to some of the richest Israeli Building contractors.
    Maybe they’ll go to business school

  180. Charlie Kalech

    6/9/2009 at 3:17 pm

    froylein writes: “a free word of advice: no swearing, no insults”

    Followed by Zag adding insult to injury:
    “Kilstein: you are simply a childish, immature, underdeveloped, hollow person. Notice I didn’t use the word “man,” because you do not adequately represent one.”

    You two should listen to each other objectively as the rest of us are. You come across ignorant and arrogant. Much more than the good Dr. who, like Shimshon, I never met or had any contact with before his current visit to the Holy Land.

    However I met benefited from four sessions with Kilstein. I am hardly a newbie and have been supporting a family and several employee’s families working on the Internet since the graphic Web was born. Shimshon followed me by a couple of years. And as I have mentioned, there are others whose respect has been earned though their professionalism, knowledge and contributions to the community who have posted that they too benefited from Kilstein’s visit.

    Are we all fools in your eyes?

    Have you verified facts?

    Have you considered the possibility that you are mistaken?

    I don’t think any of you realize the damage your unprofessional behavior has done to yourselves or Jewlicious (sorry Sara and CK).

    Do some damage control and contact Shimshon.

    Show him what you’ve got.

  181. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 3:24 pm

    Shimshon, I’ll let it slide then that you chide Zag for his behaviour and not Kilstein for his, which goes beyond obnoxiousness. I hope you have been raised in a home that has taught you to see the difference between cheeky or provocative behaviour and spewing insults. So, my bit of advice still stands unless you aim to target at a marginal group of socially inept people. I’ll gladly meet you when I visit CK or my friends in Bnei Brak. Whatever is more convenient for you.

    Shlomi, read closely above. Thanks.

  182. themiddle

    6/9/2009 at 3:27 pm

    Okay, can this stop now?

    Seriously, it’s an idiotic conversation where everybody has made the same point several times.

    Save your poor fingers.

  183. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 3:30 pm

    Charlie, if anything, letting Kilstein go on his rants here has done damage to Jewlicious. Zag’s evaluation of Kilstein hardly compares to the obscenities Kilstein has generously thrown around on here.

    As a business person, you should also know to pick the person you associate with carefully. I, as a customer, would not buy products from anybody who is supportive of Kilstein after having read his rants above.

  184. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 3:33 pm

    Middle, I’m sorry. Contact CK when he’s back in.

  185. Shlomi

    6/9/2009 at 3:36 pm

    there’s so much to read… very funny conversation.

    and why nofollow? This Conversation could be a great backlink 🙂

  186. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 3:42 pm

    Shlomi, our regular readers are more interested in our other posts. As you see on top of the page on the right-hand side in the “recent comments” box, the last few comments left are listed in there, which serves as a great tool for readers to direct their attention at certain posts first or to see whether a response to a comment by them has been left recently (as many people do not like to check the box for automatic email updates). So repeated comments on here take away the attention from other posts that deserve our readers’ attention.

  187. Shimshon

    6/9/2009 at 3:43 pm

    Why on earth should I chide Harlan for his behavior here? I said I was against obnoxiousness in general. If I wanted to go further I would contact him directly since he, unlike some people, doesn’t hide who he is.

    Besides, I assure you he couldn’t care less what I think about him. He certainly doesn’t care about what you think either, a point you seem to have missed.

    Charlie’s right though. All you have to do is contact me and prove yourself and EVERYTHING WILL BE JUST FINE. Really.

    I will plan to forget about this whole childish incident immediately, but when you make it over here next and drop me a line. I plan to be pleasantly surprised. I am in Yerushalayim but I have a car and can travel. For tzniut I can bring along my wife. She is also a professional internet marketer who also liked what Harlan had to say both yesterday and at Affilicon so she obviously could use your help as well.

  188. Charlie Kalech

    6/9/2009 at 3:44 pm


    You seem to know it all. We mere mortals are open to learn from all who are willing to teach – yourself included.

    You can not even hear when someone is trying to help you.

  189. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 3:54 pm

    Shimshon, Kilstein cared so much about what I had to say that he fell into repetitive insults. I do wonder why. If you chided Zag for his behaviour, fairness would require you’d chide Kilstein, too. But that’s your choice, and I respect it.

    Charlie, I’m not quite sure what you are getting at. I have learnt a lot in my life and still do learn a lot. Do you listen to any preacher on the street just because they are willing to teach?

    And to both of you, unlike others on here, I’ve never claimed to be an internet marketing expert. What I could claim for myself is that I’m a critical consumer. As a critical consumer, I’ve raised points and questions that were not answered in a decent manner by people several decades my senior. Basically, those points and questions were not answered at all. What I received were condescension, mockery and insults of a pretty bad variety. If you think this accounts for legitimate expert behaviour and sound, quality responses, your choice again.

  190. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 3:55 pm


    If you say Harlan is nice you are obviously one of his tag alongs.

    its IMPOSSIBLE for someone to have never heard or met Harlan before actually go to a challenge posted here on jewlicious, and end up IMPRESSED.

    All the peositive people posting WASTED their time because they have MUCH better information in the LIBRARY.

    (nodding :lightbulb:)

  191. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 4:01 pm

    Shimshon, may I email you at the address you’ve left in the comment form?

  192. Zag

    6/9/2009 at 4:01 pm

    Kilstein apologists, please.

    Some of you (not all) have become like a little “gang” on here with your for-profit propaganda, and it’s taken on much of the color of your leader. But none of this makes you or he right nor justifies his foul behavior or your endorsement of it.

    You can attempt to distract all you care to by attacking or being vile toward those who question him, but it only makes those questions stand out more.

    How can you possibly overlook the outright NASTY comments originally made by Kilstein? How can you simply forget that “your boy” is a loose cannon of the nastiest sort? Is decency irrelevant now, or is he somehow exempt? Does that not indicate something about him, or is it just like putting on a shirt?

    “It is a marketing strategy” is NOT a good or reasonable answer.

  193. Tom Morrissey

    6/9/2009 at 4:06 pm


  194. Harlan Kilstein

    6/9/2009 at 4:16 pm

    Unlike others who don’t keep their promises, this is my last post on this blog post.

    It not only summarizes my views on this post, it summarizes my feelings on the over all state of affairs in Israel.

    My father-in-law loved to provoke questions at the Passover Seder. One year, he started to explain that there really wasn’t a Moshiach and that he would never come.

    It’s sad to say but from what you guys on Jewlicious have done in the past week, I’d have to say he was right.

    From being misquoted and attacked by people who never met me, here are the final thoughts I’d like to share.


    From the words of Sheryl Crow:

    “Out Of Our Heads”

    If you feel you wanna fight me
    There’s a chain around your mind
    When something is holding you tightly
    What is real is so hard to find

    Losing babies to genocide
    Oh where’s the meaning in that plight
    Can’t you see that we’ve really bought into
    Every word they proclaimed and every lie, oh

    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts
    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts

    Someone’s feeding on your anger
    Someone’s been whispering in your ear
    You’ve seen his face before
    You’ve been played before
    These aren’t the words you need to hear

    Through the dawn of darkness blindly
    You have blood upon your hands
    All the world will treat you kindly
    But only the heart can understand, oh understand

    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts
    Children of Abraham lay down your fears, swallow your
    Tears and look to your heart

    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts
    Children of Abraham lay down your fears, swallow your
    Tears and look to your heart

    Every man is his own prophet
    Oh every prophet just a man
    I say all the women stand up, say yes to themselves
    Teach your children best you can

    Let every man bow to the best in himself
    We’re not killing any more
    We’re the wisest ones, everybody listen
    ‘Cause you can’t fight this feeling any more, oh anymore

    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts
    Children of Abraham lay down your fears, swallow your
    Tears and look to your heart

    If we could only get out of our heads, out of our heads
    And into our hearts
    Children of Abraham lay down your fears, swallow your
    Tears and look to your heart

  195. Zag

    6/9/2009 at 4:25 pm

    He actually did it. No profanity, no venom, just a snarky little lead-in to some measured distraction.

    That’s a strategy that would have worked better in the beginning.

    No further comments here.

  196. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 4:26 pm


    Harlan is VERY VERY rude and VERY VERY VERY obnoxious. (he claims it to be a business strategy. whatever…)


    After a personal meeting (at which he seemed kinda nice for 240 minutes or so) with many of the posters in this tread, including Mr. Jewlicious, It seems that Harlan knows his stuff. (although there are other people/books in/on the planet that know much much much much much much much much much more.)

    Zag, based on all the comments above can we agree that the two are correct?

    If you can agree, then we can close this discussion.

    Or is it just a way to generate continued interest in this post that should have died after The Cafe Aroma Challenge?

    PS. Next time, PLEASE go to a place with a Mehadrin hechsher, so I can drink something!

    (I mean Cafe Rimon was DOWN THE BLOCK!! AAAAAH!!)

  197. froylein

    6/9/2009 at 4:26 pm

    Tom, the expression I have learnt is “to get / have one’s knickers in a knot”. I suppose some people’s underwear cannot be distinguished from their shoes. 😉

    Funny that we now also are collectively responsible for busting a relatively new phenomenon in Jewish eschatology. I hope at least Sheryl Crow will get paid her due royalties.

  198. Bizb

    6/9/2009 at 4:28 pm

    OK Zag is out? Harlan’s Out? I’m Out, Too!*

    I think that froleyn or salty will be honored with the final post.

    *= This statement had not been assesed by the FDA, SBA or FCC for accuracy or completeness. This may change at any time.

  199. Shimshon

    6/9/2009 at 5:09 pm


    Yes, you can contact me at the email address I used in the form.

  200. Shimshon

    6/11/2009 at 3:23 am

    A quick update for the countless people who are undoubtedly still following this thread, despite its near-death:

    froylein and I have exchanged emails and she plans to be in touch the next time she visits Israel. Then we can try to meet for a tête-à-tête, a la CK and Harlan (lehavdil). Preferably without the arak though unless CK joins us.

    Zag, still waiting to hear from you…

  201. Bizb

    6/11/2009 at 3:36 am


    let it die!


    (disclaimer as posted above still stands.)

  202. Jess

    6/14/2009 at 11:50 am

    Okay, so I’m a little late jumping into this discussion, and I did not attend the conference nor did I really read all the comments. I completely agree about getting competent copywriters, but I why do people always forget to talk about visuals????? Come on people! Are photo editors a dying breed?

  203. Jazz

    6/17/2009 at 4:52 pm

    “Miriam, the degree also makes people legally accountable; the average doctor does not fall asleep during surgery and if he does, he can be hold legally accountable.”

    Froylein – you totally miss Miriam’s point – your arguments are predicated on degrees = competency, and that competency should inspire trust. Degrees are a dime a dozen, all it shows is that the people who have them are willing to pay a lot of money from “experts” to learn a trade.

    That’s weird – when I phrase it like that, it kinda sounds like the same thing that Internet marketers do…

    If you an issue with Harlan, that’s fine – but gross over generalizations don’t fly (as Miriam’s excellent analogy shows). And you don’t need a degree to be held legally accountable – you’re legally accountable as a merchant operating in the exchange of goods and services. It doesn’t matter if I graduated 3rd grade if I own a restaurant and someone gets sick on my food.

    I’m not saying that Harlan is a “good guy” – I’m saying gross over generalizations just don’t work, and you’re depending on a lot of that in arguments.

    And if you’re frustrated with how Kilstein is communicating with you – learn how to communicate better. If you set a lame tone and start off with accusations, it’s not going to get better by simply repeating your complaints.

    You might have some very valid points, but if you express them in an overly-biased way, you’ll lose every time. Maybe Kilstein is a SLIME BAG. And maybe JFK WAS KILLED BY THE MAFIA. And I might have compelling evidence to prove both – but if I present that evidence in a way that detracts from my credibility (i.e., overly biased), everyone in the room will just be happy when I shut up and leave. And that seems to be the road you’re walking.

    Of course, this is the point where you roll your eyes and say “I’m just presenting the facts to these idiots, and they don’t get it, they’re getting hung up on trivial details.”

    Not really – again, the problem is that if you present facts in such a way that people perceive you are trying to make up their mind FOR them, then they will reject your idea even if it’s accurate, simply because nobody likes to be told what to think. You can chalk this up to “idiots not accepting the truth”, but the reality is that you’re responsible as the communicator to accurately present your ideas in a way that is palatable.

    You can’t blame people for rejecting food that tastes like crap even if it is “nutritious”.

    I take that back – you CAN, but you won’t be cooking for very long.


  204. froylein

    6/17/2009 at 5:14 pm

    You know what’s really weird, Jazz? The “Peace.” greeting with the particularly striking (and incorrect) full-stop gives away your true identity.

  205. BizB

    6/17/2009 at 5:21 pm

    Round II?


  206. Harlen, can’t wait seeing u again on Revenue Seminar.

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