Messianic “Rabbi” School on Facebook
If they were not on Facebook inviting people to join their fanpage, I might never had heard of this. Well, perhaps I would have when I got to LA, which seems to be the hive of their activities.
Apparently LA is the center of some really frightenting parasitic religious groups. There is of course Madonna’s Kabob Center and there is this: The Messianic Jewish Theological Institute. With campuses in LA and Jerusalem, I might add.
I know that we have serious problems out there. Big, and Major problems. With Israel, Iran, terror, unemployment. All kinds of “mean, ugly and nasty” stuff, to quote Arlo Guthrie. So why waste a few keystrokes on these guys?
Well they are on Facebook, and I feel a moral obligation to inform and warn the general public about this parasitic group that regularly feeds on unsuspecting Jews.
Ok. Now you know. If you are Jewish, please stay far far far far away from these guys and you will be fine.
From their Rabbinical Program Desciption:
RO’I offers practical courses in congregational leadership. RO’I also provides spiritual and vocational direction for Rabbinical candidates. While SJS is a distance learning program, RO’I offers intensive, face-to-face courses given in conjunction with UMJC conferences and retreats.
MJTI is an approved school of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations. We offer the courses required for the UMJC Madrikh (Licensure) Certificate and S’micha (Ordination). You can learn more about the MJTI courses by reading the MJTI Program Guide.
However, MJTI does not offer the Madrikh and S’micha credentials themselves. These are offered by the UMJC. For more information about the Madrikh (Licensure) Certificate, and an application for the program, please visit the UMJC website.
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Gee, that’s a lot of venom and hyperbole backed up by very little damning information. Seriously, dude, calm down. It’s not all about you, yo.
Rabbi Yonah-
I don’t see the big deal. I mean, is this really worth using phrases such as “parasitic,” “regularly feeds on unsuspecting Jews,” and “please stay far far far far away from these guys and you will be fine.”
Umm, do you really take me for an idiot to not be able to make up my own mind. Plus, it seems these are not ypical “Jews for Jesus.” They are well educated, and trying to get Jews to remain Jews, commited to Torah, observance, and Jewish life.
One can disagree on the Jesus part, but hen again, I do not believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Masianic either. And yet, I would never use the labels toward Chabad that you would label these Messianic Jews with.
Wanna know what the real problem is? The lost Ahavas Yisroel – our love for fellow Jews – whether or not we agree with them.
It seems my previous comment hasn’t appeared yet. Did you receive it?
Rabbi Yonah,
It is hard to even take this serious. You’d think I was reading a bad article on The Onion.
This kind of attitude is what leads to all sorts of ills like “State-Sponsored Persecution in Israel” as its termed by Jewcy.
Is this not Lashan hara? Is there not a better way to engage your intellectual audience than on the level of a toddler?
As you know, there is a lot of diversity in the Jewish world including many who think Jewlicious fell off the wagon. Wouldn’t you encourage those who differ to learn for themselves rather than swallow a red pill into a Matrix of malicious ignorance?
So it is in this case. At a minimum, let’s prefer clarity to agreement and honor each other as Am Israel.
Lead the way Rabbi, lead the way.
(it seems links to other sites prevent comments from being seen…)
l’hit
Dear gentlemen, Messianic “Jews” are actually Christians. They should call themselves Christians and leave the Jewish people alone. In case you were unaware, major funding for the Messianic “Jews” comes from the Southern Baptists who claim the same proselytizing mission of converting the Jews to belief in Jesus as Christ. This is a red line, no less than any Chabadnik who believes Schneerson was the Messiah.
Rabbi Yonah is right to warn people and you folks should really stick to your Christianity and leave conversion of the Jews to some grander power, like God. If he exists.
Thanks.
I’m a catholic, and my question intends to be respectful.
There are buddhist jews, and atheist jews. Why couldn’t there be christian jews?.
The late Jean Marie Lustiger, Cardinal Archbishop of Paris, defined himself as a jew (his grandfather was a rabbi), and he never saw his catholicism as a rejection of his judaism.
Edith Stein, Raisa Maritain, and Simone Weil come also to mind.
I hope nobody finds this offensive.
Messianic Jews are not Christians as they don’t get baptised and don’t partake in the eucharist. In that they believe they know who the Messiah is, they are no different than Chabad (several of my Chasidishe rabbinical friends mused Chabad has turned non-Jewish because of that).
Whenever I told people that there are Evangelical groups actively trying to convert Israeli Jews to their variety of Christianity (which is considered shady by most major Christian denominations, too), pretty much everybody (and I was highly amused to see later that EV had similar thoughts) shrugged it off, telling me Evangelicals were supportive of Israel. They’re supportive of Israel because they believe their Messiah will return there, but if you read the fineprint of their eschatology, they also believe that Jews must be disunited for their Messiah to return – a theological approach most other Christian denominations consider appalling.
The group in question is openly messianic, so I think JB is right in that people should be left to making up their own minds.
Javier, you’re addressing a dilemma many people find themselves put in when they admit to being comfortable with a mixed background. I appear to be the only blogger on here who admits to having a mixed background, but genetics tells me you cannot have blue eyes if all of your ancestors wandered the desert way back. (As for me, my eyes are so dark that sometimes people ask whether the colour is real.) I think it’s the insecurity that came with fleeing Europe in many cases and then trying to form a religious identity abroad that has led many people to a black-or-white way of thinking, no go in between. It takes more education to deal with two backgrounds and define your own position than to have your position cleanly laid out for you. But that’s not the issue mainstream Judaism has got with Messianic Jews, rather: with Messianic Jews that believe Jesus of Nazareth to have turned Messiah. A little more honest and profound looking into the development of Jewish eschatology would tell them that the Messianic idea is relatively new to Judaism and throughout history has largely been influenced by Christian concepts – in both rejecting and accepting ways -, so “true Jews” might want to reflect on Messianism altogether. I know a lot of people hate when I say this, but cultural influences between Judaism and Christianity have gone both ways as Jews have never lived in a hermetically-sealed or semi-permeable bubble.
The problem I have, putting aside the question of a messiah for a minute, is sneaky proselytizing that includes outright lies, particularly to less observant and religiously informed Jews.
Middle, I think it doesn’t get much more bold than calling oneself “Messianic”. As a Chasidic friend of mine said, he’s wary of anybody who claims to have seen the light – whether in a religious or secular way.
Where’s the fire? They’re Jews who think Jesus is the Messiah. That’s all. This institution in particular has a reputation for encouraging Jews who believe in Jesus to be better Jews … observe kashrut, Shabbat, taharat mishpochah … pursue justice, give tzedakah, etc. I wish I could say as much for the average Reform and Conservative institutions, most of which are in a state of existential crisis. Tell me, please, how are Messianic Jews any different than the Mashiachist Lubavitchers?
They’re not. The Lubavitchers who actually believe Schneerson is the Messiah have removed themselves from Jewish life which is why they tend to keep it quiet when not around compatriots.
But you can’t be a Jew and think that Jesus is the messiah. That makes you a Christian.
It is for this discussion that I posted the article.
Many of so-called Messianic Jews are not Jewish, but Christians, born Christians. They have every right to their belief, but not to call their practice Judaism.
They can practice all the kashrut, shabbat, mivkah, they can even pray three times a day.
But, as long as they believe in Jesus, they are no longer practicing Jews.
They can use any name they want for what they do, but not “Jewish”.
That is why they are parasites, they use Judaism for their own purpose, and by attaching their religious practice to Jewish religious practice they seek legitimacy.
But just because a monkey lights shabbat candles it doesn’t make her a Jewish. Performance of certain mitzvot does not make you Jewish, sorry.
There is no such thing as Jewish diversity including these groups.
It is not lashon hora, but a mitzvah to warn people of their activities.
I LOVE the Jews JB, and please do not insinuate that I don’t. Loving Jews doesn’t mean accepting their beliefs when they are antithetical to Judaism. Loving Jews means warning Jews that this Messianic stuff is completely unJewish, completely Christianity. Loving Jews is warning them that this is no place for a nice Jewish boy or girl.
And last but not least.
Please keep Chabad out of this – I am not a chabadnik, this is not a chabad blog, nothing in this article is related to chabad. Its a total red herring.
And if you are a such a believer in Jesus, that is totally your prerogative.
More power to you. Its just not Jewish, or Judaism.
We do not want the world to be Jewish, but believers in God, in morality.
What makes a person a Christian is baptism + eucharist. And the Chabad angle is not a red herring; if you believe in a Messiah person as opposed to the original Jewish concept of a Messiah theory, then it doesn’t matter what person you link this belief to. The Lubavitchers still comprise an active and publicly visible group in Jewish life – over here they provide most of the Orthodox rabbis around, kashrus supervision etc. If mainstream Judaism thinks Messianic Jews are not Jewish, then they should stop using the services of Chabad-Lubavitch when travelling abroad, because then their food isn’t kosher either. Disagree with people theologically all that you want, but don’t apply double standards.
Froylein, I agree about Chabad and disagree about Christianity. The baseline for Christianity is belief in Jesus as more than a regular person. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a pre-Augustine Roman Christian or a full fledged Catholic or a “messianic Jew.” The eucharist is not the basis of the Christian faith. Jesus as messiah or as lord is.
Chabad has many believers who do not believe that Schneerson is the messiah just as they have many who do. The difference between them is precisely the same difference that delineates Christians from Jews. I know R. Yonah doesn’t want to go there but this is a sad fact. While we hope they wake up from their confusion, I personally see little difference between believing that a messiah has arrived today versus believing that he came 2000 years ago. Neither comports with Jewish faith.
Middle, trust me, without baptism and eucharist, no Christian denomination will consider you Christian. Accepting those two sacraments is key for being Christian. There are tribal religions that have adopted several religious influences, and those also consider Jesus the Messiah, Islam considers him a prophet-cum-messiah.
As little as you can look into the heads / hearts of a Chabadnick, as little can you claim that Messianic Jews are out there to fish Jews with bad intentions. There are proselytizers that have bad intentions, but the majority is convinced of actually doing something good. The question that should rather be asked is how come that Jews ditch organised Judaism and start looking elsewhere. A content husband doesn’t turn a cheater just because the occasion / opportunity arises.
According to Judaism they are Jews. “ישראל שחטא – ישראל הוא” Loosely, translated – a Jew that has sinned – is still Jewish. In Judaism one cannot stop being Jewish ever. That being said, they are preaching Christianity. That is the problem.
Regarding Chabad’s messianism, the late Rabbi Shach was rumored to have said that Chabad is the closest thing to Judaism…
Froylein,
The Eucharist is central to Roman Catholicism and to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I’m not sure if it is that important, or even exists, in some Evangelical Christian denominations (They don’t have the Mass, and may have reduced the Sacraments to Baptism only).
Javier, Protestant / Evangelical denominations don’t call it Eucharist but Final Supper. All (but the Salvation Army and a few Adventist denominations, the theologies of which are considered somewhat shady by the major denominations) those denominations though accept the validity of the “original”, dominical sacraments established by Jesus, namely baptism and Eucharist / Final Supper. The issue between the Catholic churches and the non-Catholic denominations is not the question whether the Eucharist / Final Supper constitutes as a sacrament but the question of whether transubstantiation occurs or the sacrament is of symbolic value.
Both Middle and froylein are correct: from a strictly technical standpoint, without baptism and acceptance of the sacraments (whether or not one believes Transubstantiation actually takes place so that the worshiper is consuming the actual flesh and blood of Jesus [Catholic] or that it is only symbolic [Protestant]) one cannot be considered a true Christian, regardless of one’s personal beliefs.
Consequently, if there are any actual Jews involved in this “Messianic” narrishkeit, they are, from a technical standpoint, still Jews (one cannot, after all, sew one’s foreskin back on). However, their beliefs and practices are antithetical to Judaism as defined by mesorah. And that is the point: it is the mesorah as interpreted by the rabbis, that defines what Judaism (as opposed to Jewishness) is or is not. Individual Jews make their own choices as to whether, or to what degree, they will follow this mesorah. It still defines what Judaism is and isn’t however.
These messianists may or may not be Jews (my guess is that many, if not most, are not). But what they are doing is not Jewish.
Rabbi Yonah, thank you for your thoughtful reply. We cannot solve this here but maybe we can give people some better information to base their decision.
What is Judaism? And what is Jewish? Who defines this?
Avraham was the first Hebrew by Hashem’s unmerited choice and election. Abraham didn’t pass through between the animal, only Hashem did.
Abraham’s response gave him favor with Hashem but his election was already secure.
The same is true of Isaac and Jacob who were heirs of this election and still needed to choose to give their allegience to Hashem as a response to their election.
In the words of Orthodox Theologian Michael Wyschogrod:
“The election of the people of Israel as the people of God constitutes the sanctification of a natural family…the Jewish body as well as the Jewish soul is holy”
Election (Hashem’s choice) and our obedience (beliefs, halakah, derek eretz, etc.) are two discrete matters.
Even if a Jew were to believe themselves or another to be the Messiah as the empty chair for Eliyahu at every Bris anticipates, and as may have been the case with Rav. Shneerson, they are still part of the natural family called Israel.
You may call them apostate, but you cannot call them גוים.
Since when did Judaism become so concerned with what people believe anyway? Some in my Jewish family may believe in reincarnation. It’s in my Artscroll Siddur they tell me! Some don’t believe in any Messiah, even in the future. Some don’t even believe in God.
Missionary tactics and Jewish costumes aside, can someone tell me why believing any particular thing makes one non-Jewish?
And what to they become by the way? Being a “Christian” is assenting to an idea, a world view, not a carnal family.
Does the Jew become “Humanish?” A carnal orphan without a family? Shouldn’t the criteria used in the creation of the National Homeland for the Jews (now called the State of Israel) be of some relevance here?
Forgive the descent, but Hitler wouldn’t care what any Jew believed. They were part of the family of Israel. Period.
Last I checked, the fact that you disagree with a fellow Jew doesn’t make that person not-Jewish. Neither does it make that person a parasite. The reason you’ve been accused of lacking ahavas yisroel is because your name-calling reeks of arrogance.
Jewish thinking on the Messiah has evolved over time, and different interpretations of messianic literature have come in and out of fashion in various sects. The fact that your thinking is situated in a particular moment in time based on a limited set of facts doesn’t put those who have or will disagree with you outside the ambit of Judaism. After all, who gave you the patent on Judaism, and who’s to say you’ve got it exactly right?
Calling Messianic Jews “Christians in disguise” is a lot like calling Democratic fans of Abraham Lincoln “Republicans in disguise.” Today’s Republican Party may claim a progressive lineage and herald Lincoln as its founder, but it bears little resemblance to him or his ideals today.
The same principles apply to this discussion. Non-Jews hijacked the life’s work of a Jewish man, pushed out his Jewish followers, polluted him and his ideals beyond recognition, and created a new religion out of him. It still doesn’t make him or the Jews who follow him arbiters or members of 21st century Christianity.
And “they are because I say so” isn’t enough, either.
Observer – the people involved may be themselves Jewish (or members of the Jewisph people) if they were born Jewish.
Their ideas and philosophy are inherently un-Jewish. The belief in Jesus as the messiah and son of G-d (regardless of the man’s own life) is Christian. For one, Judaism doesn’t recognize the corporeality of G-d. They espouse Christian beliefs and ideology – if that’s just an aspect of Judaism, then why not call all Christians Jews?
Believe that Jesus or Yeshua is the Messiah is a very Jewish thing that was taken by the christians(former pagans). The Jews are getting back this right to believe in Jesus like Messiah of the Jews (because that He was kill).
“Judaism doesn’t recognize the corporeality of G-d”: G-d always have wanted to live with His people and because of that the messianic jews says that G-d came like a man to do the Torah and save his people.
I love it when practicing Christians, Jews For Jesus and “Messianic” Jews who are 1000 percent outside of Judaism lecture Jews on what is Judaism. Love it.
Our concept of the messiah completely rejects Jesus. No amount of “evolution” is needed.
Judaism has ALWAYS been about what people believe AND what people practice.
Many of those so-called Messianic Jews are really NOT JEWS, not born Jewish.
And while people like to quote “A Jew even if he sins is a Jew,” is SPECIFICALLY describing a Jew that left Judaism, and then desired to return. Do we accept them. Yes. Of course, emphatically.
But it does not mean that while they are involved in completely Christian parameters of belief that we have to describe them as Jews.
They cannot have an aliyah, a wedding, cannot perform any function. They cannot serve as a witness or a Judge a teacher, and on and on.
What part of “they are not Jews” is so hard to bear? Does it hurt their feelings? It shouldn’t if they were intellectually honest.
And lastly, the Nazi litmus test, i.e. that the Nazi’s would not care what they practiced. This is NOT TRUE.
There is a religious group called the Karaites that live in parts of Eastern Europe down to Istanbul, and now all over America. They are descendants of Jews that rejected rabbinical Judaism.
The Nazis DID NOT round up the Karaites. They did not consider them Jews. The Rabbis they interview also did not consider them as Jews.
To the Nazis being Jewish was a biological / pseudo-racial classification. A Jew’s “blood” is what made him dangerous until it was “watered down” by several generations of intermarriage.
I hope that those that advocate Christianity for Jews do not regard being Jewish as racial profile, but are honest and regard it as a national and religious identity.
Just as not every country allows dual citizenship— You cannot be both Christian and Jewish.
Rabbi Yonah, the point is that Messianic Jews do not consider themselvs Christian, and unless you register the terms “Jew”, “Jewish” etc., you cannot forbid someone to call themselves such no matter how you personally feel about it. Most Christians also would be quite suprised at your and Middle’s idea of what constitutes as a Christian. Also, for the sake of proper discourse, I’ve encountered several highly educated non-Jewish people that know more about Judaism than most Jews I know – because of their advanced degrees in Judaistics – , rabbis included. If expertship required being part of a system, there could be nothing like foreign politics, archaeology, gynaecology carried out by men etc. Not every non-Jew interested in Judaism on either a spiritual or an academic level is out there to get Jews.
I agree with the above commenter, the concept of messianism has evolved in Judaism over time – to the extent it has taken on a more Christian flavour than what it originally used to be like. And it’s not only that commenter and I that believe so, but the link to the article in the Jewish Enyclopaedia – the standard reference in Jewish religious studies at an academic level – also elaborates on how that concept evolved. That encyclopaedia already is about a century old, and there has been more research on that matter going on since.
Rabbi Yonah,
Thanks for the characterizations of your fellow, though more open-minded, Jews. We are not alone in fact, just search “big tent judaism” or “interfaith family” in google.
It seems you have intended to broach this topic simply to pontificate. This is not without a sense of irony.
You have not conceded any point of merit or discovery.
On the corporeality of Moshiach from Melachim 11:3 and Chabad.
On the often overlooked fact that Karaite Jews and Karaylar-Karaites are two distinct and separate groups. One of which the Nazis rounded up and the other was exempted but also rounded up by the French Vichy Government.
With all do respect Rabbi Yonah, to be intellectually honest is to avoid pejorative caricature and exemplify respect, even among those who disagree. The evidence of which would be moderating your original post.
g’shabbes
“And while people like to quote “A Jew even if he sins is a Jew,” is SPECIFICALLY describing a Jew that left Judaism, and then desired to return. Do we accept them. Yes. Of course, emphatically.”
Are you sure? I thought it was from a responsa about them, but was relevant to all Jews, returning or not.
In any case, I’m not arguing against the gist of your words here. I was only saying that they could be Jewish, but only technically. This does not mean I am, in any way, defending these groups, who masquerade as representatives of Judaism in order to promote Christianity to unsuspecting Jews.
I invite you all to look at various dictionaries’ definitions of the nouns “Christian” and “eucharist.”
I stand by my earlier claims that “Jews for Jesus” AKA “Messianic Jews” by definition are Christians.
dictionary.ref...
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Middle, such stuff you don’t look up in a dictionary but in a theological encyclopaedia. And if you must look up something in a common encyclopaedia online, I suggest you try the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
Analogously, one could claim that believing in Moses made people Jewish.
Rabbi Yonah,
the Nazis did kill Edith Stein in Auschwitz for being jewish, although she had been baptized into catholicism in 1922, and was a Catholic Carmelite Nun.
Judaistics? WTF is that?
“Belief in Jesus” (whatever that may mean or entail) is certainly a necessary component of being Christian. Also, I presume that once one is baptized, one remains a Christian even if lapsed, like a Catholic who no longer goes to Mass, so long as one hasn’t officially apostasized.
Still, this is just semantics. Belief that Jesus was/is the Messiah is a Christian belief. Someone born a Jew who professes such a belief, at least in the way Christians understand it (literal son of G-d born of a virgin, resurrected after 3 days, blood cleanses all sin, no salvation except through belief in him, etc.) has, for all intents and purposes, repudiated the Jewish religion and everything it stands for, even if that person hasn’t been officially baptized into the Church.
A Jew can make such a mistake and still remain, in essence, a Jew, simply because that essence cannot be altered. However, while that person is professing a mistaken belief and worshiping a false god, he/she cannot in any way be considered a member of the Jewish people in any sense, as rabbi Yonah has stated above.
So Cardinal Lustiger is SOL on that score, regardless of what he thinks or feels. It is not his decision to make.
Judaistics is the academic subject dealing with Judaism just as a university should not the place to study English or German but Anglistics or Germanistics. It’s the step up to cover a widely connected field of history – reflected popular and actual-, scripture exegesis, the development of beliefs, customs etc., their manifestations at various degrees in various locales and so on.
Anglistics / Germanistics are not only concerned with teaching the language, but more profound linguistics (basic and special fields, for instance neurolinguistics), literature (not selective, but comprehensive from the oldest known texts to current authours), the development of the language, the history / political & legal systems / geography / current issues, style & dialectics etc.
A Christian is supposed to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but that is a belief also shared by other religious groups as I explained above. The belief in Jesus as the Messiah doesn’t make one Christian and does not entitle anyone to anything in the major churches (major, because there are more than 1,200 Protestant denominations in the US alone; anybody can found a “church” there, but their theologies are not necessarily reflective of common religious belief and sometimes plain off).
The problem Judaism has is that Orthodoxy has been trying to establish itself as the norma normans while it is comparatively young and if one is willing to look into it, not necessarily reflective of “authentic” Judaism of, let’s say, 2,500 years back but the spiritually-enclined religious world of the “lower class” Jews (as opposed to the more scholarly “upper class” ones as contemporaries of Baal Shem Tov duly noted as cited in Graetz’s “Geschichte der Juden”) in Eastern Europe not too long ago.
A Christian that has once been baptized cannot make the baptism undone; sacraments can generally not be made undone, that’s why Catholics may not divorce but Protestants may. A Jew born to a Jewish mother (father in less religious circles and apparently in pre-rabbinical times) or entered into the convenant through conversion cannot be un-Jewed. (Don’t admit them to community / social functions if you feel you must though this would clash with the idea of how the Shabbat commandments were perceived for centuries.) Otherwise each and any Jew would have to stand trial to have their beliefs challenged, and my guess is that the judge would rather look like David Kelsey.
froylein, I will need a lot more than your word to accept the statement that Muslims believe Jesus is a “prophet-cum-messiah”. Muslims have, indeed, co-opted all of the prophets of the Jews and Christians simply by claiming that they were actually Muslims; this is possible because Islam believes that it is the final version of the one true religion that the Jews and the Christians screwed up by misrepresenting what the prophets said; therefore they can hijack Moses and David, and Solomon, and Jesus etc., simply by making the claim that Mohammed has perfected what they originally preached. I would imagine that one good way to get yourself lynched would be to go into a mosque and start lecturing the Muslims there that Jesus was the Mahdi.
The Muslims most certainly do not believe, any more than the Jews do, that Jesus was the Messiah in the Christian sense: a half man/half deity who is the begotten son of G-d on a human woman, and who was sent to earth specifically in order to be sacrificed on the cross so as to make salvation possible to those worshipers who eat his body and drink his blood in a sacrificial meal in the belief that this will save them from the punishment due to original sin.
Only Christians “believe” in Jesus in that sense, and when someone says he “believes in Jesus” he means he believes in Jesus as the Messiah and the son of G-d who saves that person from sin through his sacrificial death.
With all of your vaunted expertise in “Christianistics” “Judaistics” and, I assume, “Islamastics”, I’m sure you know that.
Ephraim, Islam adopted 26 out of 28 Jewish / Christian prophets. As for the rest, some proper reading will help you out. You might want to start with the Quran and a commentary. I’ve never had any problem or received as much as mockery with a devout Muslim when engaging in a conversation on this topic.
BTW, the academic subjects are called “Islamic studies” resp. “Islamology” and “theology” resp. “religious studies”.
Please show me the source in the Koarn or in the Sunna, or in any authoritative Islamic source, that teaches that Jesus is the Messiah as the Christians understand him to be. This would be absolutely impossible, as I am sure you know, since the Muslims specifically mock the Christian idea that G-d could have a son.
I am quite aware that Islam “adopted” most of the Jewish and Christian prophets. They did this by simply claiming that they were proto-Muslims, thereby giving Islam and Mohammed a bogus lineage back to Avraham Avinu. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, simple theft. Anyway, what of it? Of what theological significance is this?
If I mock, it is because you seem to be trying to make the case that “believing” in Jesus is not solely a Christian idea. This smacks of sophistry, since I am sure a person of your erudition must know that believing in Jesus as Christians understand it is completely different than a Muslim claiming that Jesus was a Muslim prophet who simply preceded Mohammed.
Also, I’m sure Muslims love it when they can find infidels who buy into the lie that Islam respects Judaism and Christianity (”See? We share the same prophets!”) when of course it does nothing of the sort.
So, answer me these questions, please:
Do orthodox Muslims believe:
1)That Jesus was at once god and man combined in one being?
That he will return in a second coming?
2) That he is the begotten son of G-d?
3) That he was born of a virgin who was impregnated by the holy spirit?
4) That the world was created through him?
4) That he is a pre-existing part of the godhead?
5) That he was put on earth specifically in order to be sacrificed on the cross so that man could achieve salvation by “believing” in him?
6) That this salvation is achieved through eating his body and drinking his blood (literally for some, symbolically for others)?
7) That he was crucified, buried, and was resurrected on the 3rd day whence he rose directly to heaven?
9) That he will sit in final judgment on all of mankind?
Anyway, you get the point.
On general principle, I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing to try to find common ground between different religions. I just think it’s better to be honest about it. Like I have said before, you remind me of a Catholic woman I knew who thought that Mass and the Seder were the same because both involved drinking wine and eating crackers.
Forest, trees, etc.
Why don’t you dig your nose into the Quran yourself? BTW, the divinity of Jesus Christ (as opposed to Jesus of Nazareth) was highly debated among Christians as well (too busy now to look up the various councils where this was debated).
The idea of Jesus as the Messiah is not tied to the Christian belief of Jesus being the son of God, thus it has found reception among non-Christians, too. You’re addressing two different issues.
I have never claimed that Orthodox (I’d rather use devout as there’s not really a system of Muslim Orthodoxy) Muslims believed in those points, but if you must know, Islam believes in virgin birth through Mary / Maryam (sure 3:45-47) and that he was sent from God, created by God and not conceived by man (3:59), that he worked miracles (3:49), that he was elevated into Heaven by God (4:157), and that there’ll be resurrection & “Judgement Day” (2:82). Too busy to look up the other passages now, but you get the idea.
It’s all good and nice to try to reduce theologies to a very simple level when dealing with three-year-olds, but that doesn’t do the highly refined nature of the varying and partly overlapping theologies justice.
Sigh.
Yes, I know that whether or not Jesus was divine or not was debated among the early Christians. So what? That debate has long been settled. Christianity, as we know it, is founded upon the belief that he was divine and the begotten son of G-d. Harking back to days when this was not so is pointless.
Again, you are missing the point. I know that Muslims believe in judgment day. Pretty much everything they got was plagiarized wholesale from Judaism and Christianity, so of course they are going to share similarities. The question is: is Jesus going to be running the show?
Your problem is that you pride yourself on your sophistication far too much, and since you are not a belever yourself you have no idea of what is really going on. You study religion as an entymologist studies dead bugs. Some things are very, very simple.
Believing certain things about Jesus is not the same thing as believing in Jesus. For Christians, Jesus has a central theological role: that of the savior who saves his worshipers from punishment for sin. That is what he is there for. There is no way that Muslims believe that. And believing it makes one a Christian, so long as one is also baptized in that belief.
Of course I am aware that the theologies of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam overlap. As I said, Christians and Muslims go most of their beliefs and practices from the Jews, so some overlap is only to be expected when copying of this sort goes on.
That does not make the theologies the same as you imply.
I’ve never claimed or implied that makes them the same, but that much is shared, and that Judaism, too, has adopted ideas as can easily be traced and that Orthodox Judaism de facto is not a norma normans for Judaism as it used to be and not of Jewish religious expression as it is (given the numbers provided in the CIA’s World Factbook, about 5 million people in the US are Jewish; according to a JCPA article, 25% of Jews in Israel are Orthodox and a merely whoppin’ 11% in the US).
Mentioning that there were debates about the role of Jesus is not pointless as Christianity was painted as a monolithic religion above, which it pretty obviously is not.
As for pride, I don’t take pride in the ability to read. I think that ability could be expected from somebody my age.
You remind me of my colleague that claimed the new varities in potatoes are evidence for them being genetically engineered as he definitely knew about potatoes as he loved eating them. I told him those varieties aren’t new, have been known for quite some time in America, but have only come in fashion over the past few years in Europe and that in order to prevent another famine due some vermin, seed potatoes sold to farmers get changed at regular intervals. He claimed I couldn’t know such a thing as he loved eating potatoes.
I’m not a specialist on the subject, but I thought a Jew was a descendant by the blood of the Patriarch Jacob, through the Abrahamic Covenant. And that he was, by definition, unable to destroy that link, even if he tried (by believing in Jesus, for instance).
I think that the main point here should be if a Jew who believe in Jesus(a Jew fully observant of Torah) is still a Jew while a jew who believe in a pagan Indian deity or new age is considerate a jew in spite of their crazy pagans ideas.
This cannot be like a sport discussion, some people here try to underestimate Jesus just because they ‘feel’ this is the right way don’t knowing the teaching of Jesus are based in Jewishness. This people have just heard a little of the Christian side of their teaching which are away from the Jewish think of the early rabies.
Well, I hope you got what you wanted Rabbi Yonah. Sheesh, I hope this sort of attitude doesn’t head over to JConnect LA now that you are taking over for Michal.
I hope respect gets a promotion.
l’hit
If you don’t know what JConnectLA is, you can read a little history here and visit their website JconnectLA.com.
Most notably, the founder Michal describes it:
“It was the vision of Jewish Unity – a plan to create a Jewish experience in LA that would bring together Jews from any cultural or religious background in a space that was warm, fun and hip.”
Hopefully it will remain this way.
froylein, love the potatoes story by the way!
What the fuck?? Messianic “Judaism” is NOT Judaism. Plain and simple. Individuals within the Messianic movement may be Jews but the movement itself, by deceptively using the term “Judaism” is an affront to Jews and a con that takes advantage of and targets the disturbed, the elderly, the feeble minded and the ignorant. Even Birthright Israel, that uses the most Liberal definition of “who is a Jew” will instantaneously kick anyone off a trip who admits belief in Jesus as the son of God. A movement that claims to be Jewish and worships a MAN in whose name untold numbers of Jews met their deaths in the most horrific ways imaginable can simply go fuck itself. I look forward to running into you fucking idiots in Jerusalem so that I may test out first hand that “turn the other cheek” shit your false God was always preaching. I hope I was sufficiently emphatic. We don’t need or want your Jesus, and while I don’t begrudge your right to worship as you please, I will point out the innate bullshit of your fake little religion any chance I have, especially in so far as you continue to deceive and lie.
You cannot prove or disprove the content of belief.
Maybe. But you can prove it is not Judaism.
Just because Jews do it doesn’t make it Judaism.
And it doesn’t matter if they think it does, either.
Yes froylein. What Ephraim said. My only issue with these fucktards is their attempt to pass off their religious beliefs as Judaism. That’s it. I have nothing against Christians and I have no issue with people who believe in Jesus.
Have you also got an issue with Chabad?
Like TM said, that’s a red herring. I have issues with Hassidic Judaism, and frankly, any Judaism that isn’t Sephardic Moroccan, from my Father’s village specifically. But the issues I have do not prevent me from davening in any Chabad or Hassidic minyan. The meshichtim of Chabad are kinda nutty but they have yet to deify Rabbi Schneerson z”l. Also, for sentimental reasons, I can’t help but note that no one ever killed, tortured or raped Jews in the name of Rabbi Schneerson. Messianic “Judaism” is a deceptive movement that brings disrepute to Christianity and constitutes a grave insult to Judaism. So yeah, fuck ‘em.
It’s not a red herring, it’s the same difference theologically. That might be a hot potato, but still not red.
As far as dialectics goes though, bringing up past atrocities of long-since deceased Christians to hold them against Messianic Jews is called polemics, cheap ones at that, and also qualifies as a flawed take on Jewish jurisdiction which, as a novelty back then, did away with kin liability.
I could start making a list of what kind of things have been committed in the name of kiruv – killing a person physically is just one way of killing them – but that is not what Shneerson had intended and the killings of Jews is not what Jesus had intended.
Froylein, no offense, but theology means shit to me. Jews for Jesus are an affront. And they are liars. Say whatever you like, justify them any way you want, but I will never cease to attack them any chance I have. I slashed their tires at York U. (when I was young and hot headed), I confronted them in New Orleans, LA, New York, Montreal and at motherfucking Bumbamella here in Israel. I will heap scorn and abuse on them and I will be right in doing so. They are lying slime and deserve all they get for targeting the ignorant, the confused and the feeble minded.
I love Kelsey and I will personally circumcise his male children so don’t even go there
I’m not justifying them any further than saying they’ve got every right to believe what they feel like believing. It’s called freedom of creed. Do you really need this cheap mockery to affirm yourself of your beliefs?
Muffti’s coming here on Thursday. We’ll issue a joint statement.
OK, so certain Rabbis have every right to believe that certain other Rabbis did not sexually abuse anyone, right? And certain hucksters have every right to promote get rich quick schemes that don’t work, right? And certain cults have every right to give their followers purple Koolaid, right? Well, yeah sorta I suppose. I don’t begrudge these Messianic ass clowns the right to believe whatever they want to believe. But I will take every opportunity I have to expose their lies and confront them vociferously. That’s my right too innit? So once again, allow me to declare that Jews for Jesus and all Christian Messianic movements that pretend to be Jewish are deceptive movements that bring disrepute to Christianity and constitute a grave insult and threat to Judaism. Fuck them and the donkey they rode in on.
Not quite, I was talking about contents of belief, which cannot be proved. Cults put beliefs on a level with knowledge, religions don’t. If somebody chooses not to believe what can clearly be tracked using average human cognitive skills, that’s called neglect or delusion – for whatever reason.
Those documents normative for Judaism are also received by Messianic Jews; they don’t believe Jesus to be divine but to be the messiah, which puts them on the same theological level as Chabad. You claim not to care about theologies, but you try to make your case based on a particularl theology or your reception thereof. If part of your belief entails that the messiah is not known / not Jesus / not Shneerson, you’ve got every right to say so, but to discredit others’ beliefs based on your assumptions about their theology is just pointless – it might only cause you high blood pressure for all it’s worth.
Again, I am not trying to defend the meshichtim. Son of God or no Son of God, Jesus is nothing to the Jews. Less than nothing. You may as well found a new religion based on the notion that I am the new messiah. Or you are. We do not believe in his divinity. We do not believe in his status as a prophet like the Muslims do. We do not believe that God’s covenant with the Jews has been superseded by a new covenant. We do not believe in original sin and we sure as shit do not believe in turning the other cheek. Claiming that Messianic Christians are on par with Chabad ignores the fact that not all Chabadniks are meshichtim (which you know as well as I do) and that even amongst the most hard core meshichtim, none believes in a new covenant or any of that other crap the Messianic impostors are trying to sell. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig, so to speak.
And Chabad is still the biggest knock-off of Christian messianism around. Those that allegedly don’t believe in Shneerson as the messiah don’t distance themselves from the movement, which is rather telling.
Most Christians also don’t believe that the old convenant was superseded.
The New Testament replaces the so called Old Testament. The VAST majority of Christians believe this. This is why they eat shrimp and worship on Sunday. Get a clue froylein. Seriously. The meshichtim are a minority and even then, they are hardly Christian-knock offs! That’s pure narishkeit dear.
Get a clue, CK. Seriously. I’ve studied this stuff and not just drawn my own conclusions. The majority of Christians (1.4 billion) is Roman Catholic; those believe that the “convenant” of Jesus was a continuation of the old convenant; so does mainstream Protestantism.
Most Christians eat treif in reference to an argument made in the Acts stating that men shouldn’t declare impure what god had sanctified himself through creating it. Most of them celebrate Sundays in commemoration of the story of resurrection.
It’s not pure narischkeit to me nor to a large bulk of serious religious scholars that this particular matter in Christianity has greatly shaped the views on that matter in Orthodox Judaism. I’ve explained it all above. Again, that’s not just me believing so, but a large number of highly religiously educated people that set out working on real documents to find out how beliefs in Judaism have developed.
All this issues is about Yeshua, you have to know that He’s like Joseph who rules over the Gentiles while providing for the welfare of his owm family who don’t recognize him.
I don’t expect the recognition of the men, remember this: “The Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada (Agudath Harabonim) hereby declares: Reform and Conservative are not Judaism at all. Their adherents are Jews, according to the Jewish Law, but their religion is not Judaism.”
I am just a Jew that believe in Yeshua and still is living according Mosses who wrote about Yeshua. If you believe in Mosses you will believe in Yeshua.
Believe in Moses? Jews don’t believe in Moses – they believe he was an important figure in our history – not a G-d, not divine, but a leader.
Nor does Judaism allow for the corporeality of G-d – therefore, the belief in a divine corporeal being is, by definition, not Judaism (regardless of whether or not individual followers are Jews).
LB, either you believe in Moses (as in that he existed as described) or you know he existed. Take your pick.
You’re a little presumptuous there Froylein. You want to talk about Antinomianism, the Council of Jerusalem, Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews or Hebrews 8:6-7: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” Belief in Jesus and the “New” testament are antithetical to Judaism. Any movement that claims to unite the two is dishonest. The Catholic/Mainstream Protestant notion of the “New” Testament as a “continuation” of the “Old” Testament does not allow for a world where Judaism and belief in Jesus can coexist. Messianic Christians are just trying to repackage Christianity and sell it as Judaism in order to get Jews to believe in Jesus. That having been said, your sweeping declarations belie the complexity of the issue. But that’s a Christian issue – not mine and really, I don’t give a rat’s ass about Christian theology. I wish The Middle would weigh in. He might be able to provide some further insight…
What is doing our friend CK is like (another parallelism) diminishing Joseph just because he is ‘Pharaon’ of Egypt a nation of gentiles (like Christians) but what really Joshep is a Hebrew but you don’t see him like that because he is ruling this nation. Don’t be confused about what this gentiles had said about this Pharaon. Don’t see His custom but see what He say teachings full of wisdom(Torah). He is more extremist than others rabbis in some points (like divorce, to hate is to kill) and softer in others. He was a Pharisee indeed and he loved the Pharisees.
The gospel and the letters are the most representative text of the Jews in that era, in culture and traditions. Don’t be afraid of what you would find there like a jew.
About hebrew 8:6-7, Paul is speaking about the priesthood but not the law of G-d, read this like a Jew and not like the Gentiles showed you: “we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven” Hebrew 8:1 and before that in Hebrew 7:11 Paul is comparing the Order of Melchizedek with the priesthood of the Messiah, this Order was first than the Order of Aaron.
Dear Clarity -
I am not taking over for Michal at Jconnect – that is being done by Eric Rosen, a talented and wonderful guy.
I am not sure what sort of attitude you don’t like. If it is for Jewish Unity that excludes Jews that believe in Jesus as Messiah – I am not budging.
I assure you that Messianic Jews are their own thing – and not part of Klal Yisrael. Born Jewish? yes. Can they return? Yes.
Do we include them now? No.
There is some kind of objective truth- it hurts sometimes.
What do you mean by this, froylein: “they don’t believe Jesus to be divine but to be the messiah”.
Define what you mean by “messiah” here. The messiah of what? What did he do? What is the messiah’s job?
The Christians had to make him divine and part of G-d (l’havdil) and give him an entirely new role, that is, they had to completely redefine what Jews expected the messiah to be, precisely because he did no accomplish a single thing that a Jewish messiah was supposed to accomplish.
So when you say “they believe he’s the messiah”: you have to define what they believe the messiah to be. Your snarky comment to LB exposes your complete sophistry in this whole argument. You know very well what Christians mean when they say they “believe in” Jesus. They don’t just believe in the simple fact that he existed, which is theologically meaningless (I believe, for instance, that the Eiffel Tower exists; I’ve seen photos of it and my sons have seen it and they say it is definitely there, right in the middle of Paris); they believe in certain facts about him and in the power these facts have. And you know very well what these facts are. That is also why Muslims don’t “believe in” Jesus, even as they claim he was a Muslim prophet.
Jews believe that the messiah will rescue the Jews from gentile oppression, re-establish Jewish independence in Israel, usher in the geulah, and bring in an era of universal peace and brotherhood where all nations will recognize that G-d is G-d.
Is that what these “Messianic” Jews believe? Or do they “believe in” him in the Christian sense?
Christianity was the original replacement theology. The Church has recently disavowed that, and that’s very nice indeed, but this is a very recent development. There are still plenty of Christians who believe that the “New Covenant” has replaced the “Old Covenant”.
Christianity is based on the idea that the new covenant fulfills the old one and that therefore it is now possible to disregard pretty much everything that the Torah says. They can do this precisely because they believe Jesus had the power to abrogate the mitzvot precisely because he was divine.
Alright, I’m too tired to address this in detail, but again, CK, you bring up matters of a fargonne past that have since undergone a long development of theological readings and perceptions. Christianity has changed and so has Judaism. Most Christians as per the theologies of the denominations they adhere to don’t believe the “new convenant” makes the old one void. Those that still keep to that notion are a tiny group (oooops, Evangelicals again, but those are “good for Israel”) among the world’s Christian population.
Ephraim, your explanation on the idea of a Jewish messiah person clearly echoes diaspora theology. I’ve explained this before. If you still haven’t read the article in the Jewish Encyclopaedia, there’s no basis to take and answer any questions from.
Some Christians believe in a ‘Church’ but there isn’t such thing in the letters but ‘eklesia’ or ‘Congregation’, the Kehila of Israel. So this christians thought that this eklesia was ‘made up’ to replace to Israel, they conclude that the ‘New covenant’ of the christians would replace the old covenant of the Jews.
Read this with a full Jewish thoughts: “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts” Paul quoting Isaiah 54 in Hebrew 8:10. And the christians said this chapter teach about the abrogation of the ‘old covenant’! and moreover Jesus said that he didn’t come to abrogate the mizvot but to fulfill them like any Jew have to do starting with his talmidim.
All this theology was develop three hundred years after Paul wrote his letters.
I would take the complaints against Messianic Jews more seriously by traditionalists if they took a stand against the Messianic wing of Chabad.
Additionally, the fact is, large swaths of Big Kiruv are deceptive in both tactics and revisionism. Some blatantly lie, and knowingly lie. They even justify this as “pakuach nefesh” — saving a soul. You know, “making them frum.”
A major problem with the Messianics is that they are simply too frum. They are fundies with a New Religion bent. While I wouldn’t call that Judaism, I am quite frankly bothered that only a small segment of Liberal Jews are willing to take a stand against the Messianic wing of Chabad in a serious way,
So. Let’s exclude the Messianics, but let’s also exclude all of the haredim who worship Gedolim like the Avodah Zorahniks they are.
Between right-wing Orthodox Judaism, Jews for Jesus, and Unitarianism, I would choose the last religious group for my descendants, as it is far closer to the paradigm of my ancestors.
Anyone who claims the world is less than 6,000 years old is denying the imprint of God because he worships men (Gedolim). These people are not Monotheists. At least the Christians only worship one man. They are kind of like Breslov,
Ha ha ha. Kelsey, you’re so cute. When you come here we can taunt the Breslovers at their Yeshiva down the street from my house. Man you are such a hard core Litvak! The Vilna Gaon would have been proud! Had you gone to a nice “Misnaged” Yeshiva like Mir, how different things would have been today. Then you could have davened nussach Ashkenaz, then sat around with your buddies making fun of Hassidim, their poor level of scholarship and the quasi-deification of their Rabeim. At least then we wouldn’t have to hear about Unitarianism and your love of smegma. I like you because you’re like the poster boy for why everyone should be Sephardic. Moroccan Sephardic in fact, although we will give Broygez a pass because she’s adorable and puts up with you.
How is it possible for MAN to decide who is or isn’t in the spiritual family of Israel?
Can man presume to take gods place on this?
Is it right for man to decide how or when the messiah was/is to come, and what form? The messiah is a jewish belief.
And christians might as well be a sect of judaism… they believe that the messiah…. again a jewish belief… has come already. Who’s to say he did or didnt … god… or man?
God decides who is a daughter or son of Abraham NOT man! God desides who is “jewish”. Didn’t he allow people leaving Egypt during the exodus to be “in the family” How many wifes in that encampment may have been egyptian?
I am not advocating either side, but MAN deciding what god is to do is a sin.
Rabbi Yonah,
Brother Keep the faith. Many are saying that Chritians,Jews and Muslims serve the same God and that there are many paths. We know there is only one path and one truth which is Christ. God Bless you… Help me out I’m looking for a Priest from the Order of Melchizedek and his name is Eliyahu Yehoshua Cohen Gadol Ben Melchizedek or Priest Elijah Joshua. Do you know where I can find him?
He lives in the Emerald City with the munchkins, Jeffrey.
At least that’s what the Magic Unicorn told me, anyway.
That was told me whole f***ing life that you’re a jew if you have come from a jewish belli (ie:Mother, grandmother, grandgrand mother)
if the born jew belives in jesus, he still being a jew, but with a wrong conception IMO.
if he born elsewhere but he pratices judaism, and/or belives in jesus, he is not a jew, simply as that.
about chabad…well you can think what you want but inside Chabad(at leas here in Brazil) we are preparing world to the Messiach, wich means…Menachem Mendel is not him, actually i’ve never knew any chabad jew here that says Menachem is the Messiach, really.
btw i like Chabad , because they came from the biggest city of my country to almost nowere to teach me.
So between comparing Chabad with Messianic…there is a giant gap gents.
those were my 2 cents.
Cheers!
btw, sorry if it took a racist conception, but that’s law and nothnig less than it.
correction:from jewish belly