Comments on: Would King Solomon have blogged erotica? http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/ It's a Jewish Blog! Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:17:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322389 froylein Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:40:48 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322389 Would Muffti be having fun proving his biconditionals? Would Muffti be having fun proving his biconditionals?

]]> By: Grand Muffti http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322386 Grand Muffti Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:28:16 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322386 Are you having fun or engaging your commenters? Are you having fun or engaging your commenters?

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322383 froylein Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:21:07 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322383 Well, Muffti probably knows that in the religious sphere neither Muffti nor I dwell in the accusation of having committed a sacrilege is a serious one, and since in that sphere sacrilege is a terminus technicus, I made my case accordingly. The dictionary entry Muffti quoted is apparently not taken from a theological dictionary; analogously, I will find references on e.g. "Stoic" and "logics" in a common language dictionary that have got only a very low common denominator with what those terms refer to in philosophy, and unless I'm severely mistaken about Muffti, I dare say he'd have a hell of a lot of fun in responding to people that use philosopical termini technici in a sloppy and inaccurate way particularly if those people try to base their argument on the sloppy and inaccurate use of those terms. Well, Muffti probably knows that in the religious sphere neither Muffti nor I dwell in the accusation of having committed a sacrilege is a serious one, and since in that sphere sacrilege is a terminus technicus, I made my case accordingly. The dictionary entry Muffti quoted is apparently not taken from a theological dictionary; analogously, I will find references on e.g. “Stoic” and “logics” in a common language dictionary that have got only a very low common denominator with what those terms refer to in philosophy, and unless I’m severely mistaken about Muffti, I dare say he’d have a hell of a lot of fun in responding to people that use philosopical termini technici in a sloppy and inaccurate way particularly if those people try to base their argument on the sloppy and inaccurate use of those terms.

]]> By: Grand Muffti http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322374 Grand Muffti Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:54:30 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322374 Muffti thinks it is safe to say that Lori was using it in the loose and popular way, not in the technical religious studies manner. The dictionary doens't 'clash' with waht ou are saying but it doesn't support it - it provides sufficient conditions for sacrilege that are less stringent than the ones you provide. anyhow, this is as they say, much ado about nothing. Muffti thinks it is safe to say that Lori was using it in the loose and popular way, not in the technical religious studies manner. The dictionary doens’t ‘clash’ with waht ou are saying but it doesn’t support it – it provides sufficient conditions for sacrilege that are less stringent than the ones you provide.

anyhow, this is as they say, much ado about nothing.

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322133 froylein Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:38:44 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322133 Taken from the Latin "sacerdos" = "priest"; adopted in early Christianity, but sacraments being genuinely Christian. Actually, the dictionary entry you quoted doesn't clash with what I stated above, namely that "sacred" is a past participle referring to something that has been made sacred. Then the entry goes on defining the common usage (not so much modern usage, as the usage of "sacred" resp. "holy" as technical terms is just as modern) of "sacred", but not its theological implications. "Sacred" and "holy" are two different matters even though the words get used synonymously in common usage, but in the field of theology / religious studies, you have to use those terms more accurately than in a common usage way. If people want me to take matters more serious, I will. Taken from the Latin “sacerdos” = “priest”; adopted in early Christianity, but sacraments being genuinely Christian. Actually, the dictionary entry you quoted doesn’t clash with what I stated above, namely that “sacred” is a past participle referring to something that has been made sacred. Then the entry goes on defining the common usage (not so much modern usage, as the usage of “sacred” resp. “holy” as technical terms is just as modern) of “sacred”, but not its theological implications. “Sacred” and “holy” are two different matters even though the words get used synonymously in common usage, but in the field of theology / religious studies, you have to use those terms more accurately than in a common usage way. If people want me to take matters more serious, I will.

]]> By: Grand Muffti http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1322127 Grand Muffti Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:04:18 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1322127 Fair enough, Froylein, though Muffti will point out that modern usage does not connect sacred with any particular origin on the property: <i>Main Entry: sa·cred Pronunciation: 'sA-kr&d Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from past participle of sacren to consecrate, from Anglo-French sacrer, from Latin sacrare, from sacr-, sacer sacred; akin to Latin sancire to make sacred, Hittite saklAi- rite 1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity <a> b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose) </a><a> 2 a : worthy of religious veneration : HOLY b : entitled to reverence and respect 3 : of or relating to religion : not secular or profane 4 archaic : ACCURSED 5 a : UNASSAILABLE, INVIOLABLE b : highly valued and important - a sacred responsibility. <i></i></a></i> Fair enough, Froylein, though Muffti will point out that modern usage does not connect sacred with any particular origin on the property:

Main Entry: sa·cred
Pronunciation: ‘sA-kr&d
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from past participle of sacren to consecrate, from Anglo-French sacrer, from Latin sacrare, from sacr-, sacer sacred; akin to Latin sancire to make sacred, Hittite saklAi- rite
1 a : dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity b : devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose)
2 a : worthy of religious veneration : HOLY b : entitled to reverence and respect
3 : of or relating to religion : not secular or profane
4 archaic : ACCURSED
5 a : UNASSAILABLE, INVIOLABLE b : highly valued and important – a sacred responsibility.

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321903 froylein Sat, 13 Jun 2009 04:03:49 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321903 Sacred has lost it's active voice; things are made sacred through sacraments, which don't exist in Judaism. Holiness is inherent, so to speak, to the person or object in question, but like sacredness it is not originated by the person that is sacred / holy. So just because people are sloppy at choosing their words does not make their words and the theologies they deduce from those any more proper; this may all be good and nice on a layman's level, but since I got reprimanded for (alleged) joking, I've taken matters to a more serious level applying some basic theological knowledge, which I assumed all of our readers possessed. So there's holiness but not sacredness in Judaism, but the concept of holiness also is way more restricted in Judaism. A tzadik is a righteous / just person, the Commandments are holy because they are believed to have been given by god, and that was extended onto the entire Torah later on when it got codified around 200 BCE. The Song of Solomon on the other hand has never been doubted to have been authored by a man sharing his reflection on some matter or another; when more than one thousand years after it was written, rabbis were confronted with the accusation that the Song of Songs was just a piece of filthy erotica (one of the main reasons why pornographic habits established as an anti-Semitic prejudice early on) - Judaism had so far not had any issues with erotica - they came up with the allegorical interpretation. Anyone who has read the text and has tried to understand what the respective expressions imply and how they would be expressed in today's language would find such an interpretation rather absurd. The speaker allegedly being god even gets into a physical description of himself! That, as Solomon would most certainly have known, would have been blasphemous had he really been talking about god. This is to just give one example of how the allegorical interpretation clashes with core beliefs of Judaism as stated in the Torah. So, in a nutshell, the rabbis either under the impression of Paulinic prudery and / or to save their brethren from prejudices, came up with an explanation for the meaning of the Song of Solomon. Probably they were hopeful it would work for the illiterate anti-Jewish masses. That this interpretation has become the norm among those that consider themselves the norma normans of religious Judaism today shows that either they have not read the text or that they are okay with blasphemy rather than the thought of erotic scripture. Je t'aime... moi non plus. Sacred has lost it’s active voice; things are made sacred through sacraments, which don’t exist in Judaism. Holiness is inherent, so to speak, to the person or object in question, but like sacredness it is not originated by the person that is sacred / holy. So just because people are sloppy at choosing their words does not make their words and the theologies they deduce from those any more proper; this may all be good and nice on a layman’s level, but since I got reprimanded for (alleged) joking, I’ve taken matters to a more serious level applying some basic theological knowledge, which I assumed all of our readers possessed. So there’s holiness but not sacredness in Judaism, but the concept of holiness also is way more restricted in Judaism. A tzadik is a righteous / just person, the Commandments are holy because they are believed to have been given by god, and that was extended onto the entire Torah later on when it got codified around 200 BCE. The Song of Solomon on the other hand has never been doubted to have been authored by a man sharing his reflection on some matter or another; when more than one thousand years after it was written, rabbis were confronted with the accusation that the Song of Songs was just a piece of filthy erotica (one of the main reasons why pornographic habits established as an anti-Semitic prejudice early on) – Judaism had so far not had any issues with erotica – they came up with the allegorical interpretation. Anyone who has read the text and has tried to understand what the respective expressions imply and how they would be expressed in today’s language would find such an interpretation rather absurd. The speaker allegedly being god even gets into a physical description of himself! That, as Solomon would most certainly have known, would have been blasphemous had he really been talking about god. This is to just give one example of how the allegorical interpretation clashes with core beliefs of Judaism as stated in the Torah. So, in a nutshell, the rabbis either under the impression of Paulinic prudery and / or to save their brethren from prejudices, came up with an explanation for the meaning of the Song of Solomon. Probably they were hopeful it would work for the illiterate anti-Jewish masses. That this interpretation has become the norm among those that consider themselves the norma normans of religious Judaism today shows that either they have not read the text or that they are okay with blasphemy rather than the thought of erotic scripture.

Je t’aime… moi non plus.

]]> By: Grand Muffti http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321787 Grand Muffti Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:50:56 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321787 Claiming tuna with custard was a sacrilege would be very strange - since, by the definition, either tuna or custard would have to at minimum be holy - but perhaps not impossible to imagine that some group finds that to be plausible. Muffti's point was so long as there are sacred things in Judaism, there can be sacrilege. Maybe it's not so bad from a jewish point of view but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Claiming tuna with custard was a sacrilege would be very strange – since, by the definition, either tuna or custard would have to at minimum be holy – but perhaps not impossible to imagine that some group finds that to be plausible. Muffti’s point was so long as there are sacred things in Judaism, there can be sacrilege. Maybe it’s not so bad from a jewish point of view but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen.

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321744 froylein Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:01:20 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321744 Common use for sure, just as I could claim tuna with custard was a sacrilege, but in the terms of religious studies - the context making it such if really considered in all sincerity and seriousness - it's a Christian concept that clashes with the Jewish concept of creation and men's role therein (and in its detailed varieties has been a hot topic of controversy among Christian theologians for centuries already). Still, I wouldn't eat tuna with custard. Terminus technicus, Muffti. Common use for sure, just as I could claim tuna with custard was a sacrilege, but in the terms of religious studies – the context making it such if really considered in all sincerity and seriousness – it’s a Christian concept that clashes with the Jewish concept of creation and men’s role therein (and in its detailed varieties has been a hot topic of controversy among Christian theologians for centuries already). Still, I wouldn’t eat tuna with custard.

Terminus technicus, Muffti.

]]> By: Grand Muffti http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321728 Grand Muffti Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:36:21 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321728 According to the dictionary: <i><blockquote>sac·ri·lege (skr-lj) n. Desecration, profanation, misuse, or theft of something sacred. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sacrilege)</blockquote></i><blockquote> That's the common use, Froylein, and just because it comes from the Christians doesn't mean it's now a christian concept (this is often referred to as the 'genetic' fallacy). Nonetheless, Lori, lighten up! Jeez...</blockquote> According to the dictionary:

sac·ri·lege (skr-lj)
n.
Desecration, profanation, misuse, or theft of something sacred.

(thefreediction...)


That’s the common use, Froylein, and just because it comes from the Christians doesn’t mean it’s now a christian concept (this is often referred to as the ‘genetic’ fallacy).

Nonetheless, Lori, lighten up! Jeez…

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321661 froylein Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:18:31 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321661 Certainly I asked what readers thought, but I also assumed all readers knew the difference between divinely-inspired scripture / authors in the situation of writing and sacredness as a lifelong status, a concept developed in Chrtistianity which evolved out of the concept of baptism and all which that entails. Besides, the Song of Solomon was written centuries before rabbis determined it was allegorical; had no doubts existed in that regard, there wouldn't have been a need for coming up with such an explanation. Certainly I asked what readers thought, but I also assumed all readers knew the difference between divinely-inspired scripture / authors in the situation of writing and sacredness as a lifelong status, a concept developed in Chrtistianity which evolved out of the concept of baptism and all which that entails. Besides, the Song of Solomon was written centuries before rabbis determined it was allegorical; had no doubts existed in that regard, there wouldn’t have been a need for coming up with such an explanation.

]]> By: lori http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321628 lori Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:06:04 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321628 Well, I guess if you have no problem with making sacred texts the butt of gratuitous sexual musings, it isn't. To each his own -- but you asked what readers thought. Well, I guess if you have no problem with making sacred texts the butt of gratuitous sexual musings, it isn’t. To each his own — but you asked what readers thought.

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321526 froylein Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:44:22 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321526 So how's this sacrilegous? Sacredness of people is a Christian concept. So how’s this sacrilegous? Sacredness of people is a Christian concept.

]]> By: lori http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321502 lori Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:38:39 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321502 Er, I wasn't denying the human nature of King Solomon. I even supplied the stats. Er, I wasn’t denying the human nature of King Solomon. I even supplied the stats.

]]> By: Jewlicious » Let’s see… http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1321407 Jewlicious » Let’s see… Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:44:44 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1321407 [...] A representative poll taken among Jewlicious readers figured out that King Solomon in all likeliness would have blogged or tweeted erotica or or would have had erotica blogged or tweeted on his behalf. Since our Jewlicious readers have proved themselves to be an amazing think tank (if you haven’t noticed yet, I’m flattering all of you at the same time), let’s ask a few more questions to see what answers you’ll come up with. Beware though, only smart people can answer those questions. ( [...] [...] A representative poll taken among Jewlicious readers figured out that King Solomon in all likeliness would have blogged or tweeted erotica or or would have had erotica blogged or tweeted on his behalf. Since our Jewlicious readers have proved themselves to be an amazing think tank (if you haven’t noticed yet, I’m flattering all of you at the same time), let’s ask a few more questions to see what answers you’ll come up with. Beware though, only smart people can answer those questions. ( [...]

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1320594 froylein Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:25:20 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1320594 Vicki, those researchers tried to figure out how long intercourse actually lasted and how long people perceived that it lasted. People gave figures starting at 18 minutes, so, after extensive, uh, research and taking the time, those researchers found out that average intercourse only lasted 2.5 minutes and then thanks to neurological research found out that human brains shut off the ability to gauge time during intercourse. But I haven't read "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Bonk-Curious-Coupling-Science-Sex/dp/0393334791/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244636659&sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex</a>" by Mary Roach yet; she might have a few more curious insights for me. DK, I can tell you're utterly distraught. Vicki, those researchers tried to figure out how long intercourse actually lasted and how long people perceived that it lasted. People gave figures starting at 18 minutes, so, after extensive, uh, research and taking the time, those researchers found out that average intercourse only lasted 2.5 minutes and then thanks to neurological research found out that human brains shut off the ability to gauge time during intercourse. But I haven’t read “Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex” by Mary Roach yet; she might have a few more curious insights for me.

DK, I can tell you’re utterly distraught.

]]> By: DK http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1320490 DK Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:57:00 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1320490 My grand-uncle Willie described Shlomo HaMelech as a "whore-master." It pains me that there were such heretics in my family. My grand-uncle Willie described Shlomo HaMelech as a “whore-master.”

It pains me that there were such heretics in my family.

]]> By: Vicki http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1320422 Vicki Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:32:00 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1320422 2.5 minutes? What are these "clinical studies" that you're reading? ;) And now this thread is veering on something Very Wrong. So I'm just going to redirect it. Yes, Solomon would have blogged about it. But would he have had his own domain name, or remained anon on Blogger? 2.5 minutes? What are these “clinical studies” that you’re reading? ;)

And now this thread is veering on something Very Wrong.

So I’m just going to redirect it.

Yes, Solomon would have blogged about it. But would he have had his own domain name, or remained anon on Blogger?

]]> By: froylein http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1320378 froylein Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:40:53 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1320378 I have, have you? I've got a beautiful reprint of a medieval handwritten version with those elaborate illustrations they did back then. Vicki, I've read the average intercourse lasts 2.5 minutes as doctors determined in clinical studies. So that would leave him a lot of spare time to blog. :) I have, have you?

I’ve got a beautiful reprint of a medieval handwritten version with those elaborate illustrations they did back then.

Vicki, I’ve read the average intercourse lasts 2.5 minutes as doctors determined in clinical studies. So that would leave him a lot of spare time to blog. :)

]]> By: Lucy http://www.jewlicious.com/2009/06/would-king-solomon-have-blogged-erotica/#comment-1320285 Lucy Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:12:53 +0000 http://www.jewlicious.com/?p=8825#comment-1320285 Have you read Song of Songs? Have you read Song of Songs?

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