Fatwa

It’s embarrassing when our clerics, err, rabbis start announcing fatwas. I mean, how are we supposed to criticize Iranian clerics for wanting Salman Rushdie murdered when our clerics, oops, I meant to say rabbis, start announcing pulsa denuras.

Pulsa denura? Pul sa de nu ra. You’re thinking Had Gadya, aren’t you? Well, it sounds like Aramaic, but quaint Passover song it ain’t. Nope, a pulsa denura is a ceremony putting a curse of death upon an individual, and it seems that a Jewish cle…rabbi is planning to place that curse upon Ariel Sharon.

That’s right! This rabbi, Yossi Dayan, a Kach movement member, apparently has read G-d’s mind and is confident that the Gaza pullout plan is not only bad for the Jews, it is blasphemous. What would G-d wish upon the perpetrator of the pullout? What else? Death. And soon — preferably before a Gaza pullout comes about.

We’ve seen this reel before. Around 1995 this very rabbi secretly held a pulsa denura ceremony cursing Yitzhak Rabin. Then, as now, certain rabbis were using the logic of the Din Rodef to justify their bloodlust. Then, as now, the issue of land outside the Green Line informed their nefarious plans. Yigal Amir justified his murder, of Rabin and our innocence, using Din Rodef.

Din Rodef, which seems to be the favorite phrase on the lips of certain West Bank and Gaza rabbis these days, dictates that if a person is out to kill you, you have the right — or is it obligation — to kill him first. I’m not going to argue that this works well if the person’s name is Haman. It works less well when the person’s name is Sharon.

Let’s not beat around the bush, while a secular Gothic Rock band from Haifa may find it amusing to name themselves Pulsa Denura (check out the pic!), Rabbi Dayan is only the tip of the iceberg. A couple of months ago, Rabbi Avigdor Neventzal of the Old City, who apparently earns his bread from the Israeli government, publicly declared that any person who gives Jewish land to non-Jews is a rodef and the Din Rodef applies. In other words, “The fat man may be my boss but please kill him.”

“Rabbi,” “Old City,” and “Jewish land?” It’s amazing how you can take very fine and meaningful words and twist them to encourage murder. So far, Israel’s Attorney General has not seen fit to charge these rabbis with incitement, but everybody understands what these rabbis want. All you need is one gunman and we are back to 1995.

Combine the Rabbis’ statements with the ongoing rallies against the pullout — a pullout supported by over 70% of Israel’s population — the placards, the incendiary comments on public airwaves, critical comments from self-interested politicians, not-so-subtle pushing of the blame by Yesha leaders, and it is no wonder that Sharon is watching this vocal and strident minority and lamenting that some Jews, whom he has spent his life protecting, are now seeking to “off” him.

We should all be lamenting.

50 Comments

  1. ck

    9/27/2004 at 3:39 am

    Plus ca de nura, plus c’est la meme chose…

    Shalom TM! Welcome. Great first post!

    themiddle is a pseudonym for the author of this post. Just so you know, he has distinguished himself as one of the finest (IMHO) and most eloquent online defenders of Israel. His grasp of the facts as well as his cool headed, rational and non-ideological approach has always been impressive and refreshing. Welcome to Jewlicious themiddle. Thanks for a great post!

  2. E

    9/27/2004 at 4:00 am

    Lame post. Late post. Repeats the lie about Yigal Amir. How about some honestly and integrity – that’s what brought me to Jewlicious. Come on, dude, you are writing under a pseudonym – do a little research. Explain how a guy names Avishai Raviv and his “Eyal” organization fits in to your oh-so-original conception of Settler rabbis as mullahs.

    Unoriginal, unfair, and uneducated.

  3. ck

    9/27/2004 at 5:47 am

    Uh… wrong. If I have something to say, I’ll say it – I’d never hide behind a pseudonym. Having said that, feel free to expand on your ideas – you’ll find, as has been my past experience, that themiddle is always fair and open minded.

    For the record, I think I speak for all of us here at Jewlicious when I say that none of us is excited about any pullout, be it from Gaza or Yehudah and Shomron. I remember the real pang I felt the first time I saw the barrier. While the rest of the world condemns it as a land grab I was all “we’re giving all that away?” As for Gaza, even though it’s a total shit hole, I know the pullout will be seen as a victory by the death merchants and a vindication of their cowardly activities. I think that may be a strategic error – at best.

    So don’t make any assumptions – and if you’ve got something to say, then say it. We’re all cool here ….

  4. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 10:09 am

    E, I’m not sure what you’re saying. Are you saying that Yigal Amir didn’t assassinate Rabin? Are you saying he didn’t use Din Rodef as one of his justifications? Are you saying that “Rabbi” Dayan didn’t conduct a Pulsa Denura and didn’t just state publicly that he’s willing to do it again? Are you saying “Rabbi” Neventzal didn’t state that Din Rodef applies to anybody who wishes to give Jewish land to non-Jews?

    I mean, heck, I’m even providing you with links from different sources so you can’t claim that it’s all coming from one political perpective.

    Do you think these “rabbis” are without influence? Do you think that when a substantial portion of the soldiers who originate from Gaza, Judea and Samaria (or the West Bank, whichever political approach you prefer) belong to Hesder units and are essentially yeshiva bochers who are also soldiers, that if their yeshiva leader hints or speaks outright about the inappropriateness of giving land under Jewish control to non-Jews, that they might raise their arms against those soldiers who don’t subscribe to the same “god-given” rules?

    If by bringing up Raviv, you mean to bring up conspiracy theories about how it wasn’t instigation by Gush Emunim and Yesha leaders and territories rabbis that led to a climate where it was acceptable to kill Rabin, then perhaps you aren’t paying attention to what these rabbis are saying now. Dayan pulled the same stunt in 1995. What more do you need to know.

    As for lack of originality, I plead guilty. At least you can rest easy knowing that if I post something you don’t like, you’ll always have a ready retort because you’ve heard it all before.

    I do welcome all comments.

    Oh yeah, the pseudonym is there for a reason. It doesn’t change the fact that if I make a factual mistake, anybody can correct it. If I make a point with which you disagree, you are welcome to dispute it. Knowing that my full name is XYZ serves no purpose.

  5. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 10:22 am

    You misquoted Rav Neventzal along with the rest of the lefty media. He specifically said that the law of Din Rodef can’t be applied today in that situation. Check out the original quote…just look at the Jewschool entry and read the comments.

    The disengagement is a very dangerous thing. I prayed very hard on Yom Kippur to make sure it doesn’t happen.

    Go back to Jewschool.

  6. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 10:34 am

    Ethnic cleansing is always a bad thing. It’s even worse when Jews do it to Jews. The security won’t be helped one iota without Jewish cities there. All the action happens in the Arab sectors.

  7. ck

    9/27/2004 at 11:08 am

    Oh I have one:

    The mainstream leadership of the settlers’ movement, the Council of Jewish Settlements, has been firm in its advocacy of peaceful protest.

    “We will defeat this (Gaza evacuation) plan only if we conduct a determined and non-violent struggle,” it said.

    Also I know hesder soldiers. They are good boys. I would be stunned beyond words if they ever raised their arms against a fellow Jew. That is totally inconceivable, regardless of what some unrepresentative nutbars who want to killl the PM say. So I believe you’re wrong on that count.

    I mean you’re right to be offended and even embarassed by the existence of Fatwa issuing Rabbis. But I really do not think they are representative – just embarassing.

  8. stenis le menace

    9/27/2004 at 1:13 pm

    I’m a bit confused; is this a curse that God is supposed to carry out on behalf of the curser, or is it a method of legitmizing anyone who sees fit to do the killing? If it’s merely a curse, well, let’s all just be thankful that things like that don’t seem to have much causal efficacy.

  9. ck

    9/27/2004 at 1:56 pm

    Yeah stenis. Try telling THAT to John F. Kennedy ….

  10. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 2:26 pm

    The JPost is “lefty media?”

    If you mean that he indicated that Din Rodef applies philosophically but is difficult to implement because the necessary biblical council was not in place to enact the law, I would say to you that this does not change the fact that he’s clearly stating that giving away land is punishable by death. He said, “It should be known that anyone who wants to give away parts of Israeli land is considered condemned to death.”

    So if he says this at a meeting of rabbis and nobody objects to the comment, is it difficult to imagine some wacky person thinking that he is fulfilling a religious obligation by attempting to get rid of the PM who would breach this law?

    By the way, CK, I also know many Hesder guys and consider them to be salt of the earth. Many are great guys, good soldiers and represent some of what is the best about Israel. That doesn’t mean they’re all great, and it doesn’t mean that there might not be a problem in the future. Take a look at 1995.

    Here are some Yesha leaders hinting at the current situation (in case Jpost wasn’t right enough, I give you Arutz Sheva): hint hint.

    Here are some Yesha rabbis giving their opinion about the obligations of soldiers…in a very roundabout way:hint hint redux.

    And that’s what we’re talking about here. Some say it openly, some say it coyly, some pretend to be “shocked” that anybody would paint an “entire public” with this tainted brush, and then they add that it’s Sharon’s “undemocratic” decisions that would bring any violence about.

  11. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 2:36 pm

    The lefty smear is to say that Rabbi Nevensal said it that Din Rodef applies today in this case. That’s what you said. Even though you understand that Din Rodef cannot be applied in this case, today. That’s not the part you choose to repeat.

    Rabbi Nevansal is not at fault for giving a shiur on this very serious topic, and certainly not at fault for giving the halachic answer to this tricky question. That’s what the books say. If you like to pick and choose halacha according to your politics, that’s wonderful, but it doesn’t make you moral.

    I don’t know why it bothers you, since you hate Sharon anyway.

  12. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 2:46 pm

    What’s “embarrassing,” is not understanding the seriousness of ethnic cleansing, and using the term “fatwa” to describe one Rabbi’s “curse” in an effort to smear everybody who is against the ethnic cleansing.

  13. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 2:47 pm

    “themiddle,” my ass.

  14. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 3:08 pm

    Rabbi Neventzal is definitely speaking about today. He is speaking about “Israeli” land. He is stating unequivocally that that giving it away is punishable by death. It’s all nice and good to claim that he is speaking theoretically, but we can point to the Rabin assassination and show that in this kind of climate where certain rabbis begin to find halachic rulings to justify behavior that goes against the Israeli government, the IDF, and the democratic will of Israelis, statements like this can have a real impact.

    I’m noticing that nobody is addressing the rabbi who promised the pulsa denura “if the rabbis asked to do it.” What does that mean exactly? Why would somebody say something like that in a public forum unless their intent is to send a clear signal.

    Why would Neventzal speak to this topic now of all times? Why is that Din Rodef seems to come up every time an Israeli PM plans to move Israel out of certain areas? Is this a coincidence? This “shiur” just came up now by happenstance?

    Of course not.

    Where did you get a sense of whether I hate Sharon or not?

    It could be any Israeli politician and they do not deserve death or assassination. This is the point I’m trying to make. This is about people with religious authority who abuse that authority when it comes to respecting the institutions of the State of Israel.

  15. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 3:25 pm

    Velvel:

    0.
    That’s a strong phrase: ethnic cleansing. Sounds like Nazis and Jews. Do you think that when you use language like that, you might give somebody the idea that violence is an appropriate means to avoid “ethnic cleansing?”

    1.
    iiie.net/Artic...

    The word is appropriate here.

    2.
    If you consider ridding Gaza of Jews to be “ethnic cleansing,” you might be surprised to learn that I disagree with your language but agree with the idea that Jews shouldn’t be removed from places where they wish to live. In my opinion, if those Jews who live in Gaza wish to remain there and live under Palestinian rule, as far as I’m concerned, the IDF can give a pullout deadline and leave. If people want to remain behind, that would be their choice.

    However, I would set limits: Israelis would not be permitted to supply these remaining settlers with arms, and they would have to understand that once the IDF is out of there, it is not coming back unless there’s a war with Egypt or the Palestinians develop some sort of significant and dangerous military capability that needs to be addressed with a raid. They are on their own.

    I subscribe to the idea that Jews have a legitimate and historic right to live in areas of the Land of Israel that possess historic, religious and cultural meaning for them/us. However, those Jews will have to bend their will to the prevailing political and demographic conflict and if that means that a Hebron Jew must live under Palestinian rule in order to live in Hebron, then that’s their choice.

    If you wish to call that “ethnic cleansing,” which is very similar to the incendiary language being used by some of the Yesha leaders these days where they speak of the Israeli government being like Nazis and those who assist them being like Judenratt members, then I fear you are reaching too far into the extreme.

    And yes, I like to think TheMiddle is appropriate. 😉

  16. ck

    9/27/2004 at 3:28 pm

    Man you guys are so off base you have no idea. I mean I am all for lively discussions and all and aside from some slight mean-spiritedness I am enjoying this give and take. But the idea that themiddle is a “lefty” is so laughable, you so have no clue. But we’ll see, eh? He’ll keep posting, and y’all can judge better then.

    Uh Velvel – what’s with the ethnic cleansing thing? Why is that germane? And as far as Sharon goes, speaking for myself, I am one of the few people in the world who can say that he’s hoisted Sharon on his shoulders… we were dancing and got carried away, what can I say? I mean I love the guy – I’m just not in love with him, know what I mean?

    😉

  17. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 3:37 pm

    I am left handed.

  18. ck

    9/27/2004 at 3:44 pm

    I KNEW IT! Fucking pinko!

  19. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 3:55 pm

    What is the proper phrase for eliminating Jews from a geographic location?

  20. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 3:55 pm

    People get all funny when I use the German word that no one dares speak.

  21. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 3:57 pm

    Rabbi Nevansal said, at the end of the shiur, that this could not be applied today. That part is rarely repeated by the press or by anyone in favor of “freeing up land from Jews.”

  22. Velvel

    9/27/2004 at 4:04 pm

    Here’s the quote that you refuse to acknowledge, from Ha’aretz, that lefty rag, the part that you like to ignore is the last sentence:

    “It should be known that anyone who wants to give away Israeli land is like a rodef, and certainly land should not be given to idol worshipers,” Neventzal said. However, he also said it is impossible to issue a rodef ruling today.

    haaretzdaily.c...

  23. ck

    9/27/2004 at 4:34 pm

    I don’t care what political or religious orientation floats your boat, but if you express anything less than abhorrence and disapproval of the notion of assassinating a Prime Minister, or attacking members of the IDF, then you’re probably floating in Neturei Karta land…

  24. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 4:58 pm

    Who didn’t acknowledge what? I acknowledge that he hedged his bets at the end of the talk. So what? Maybe he didn’t want to be in direct violation of the law against incitement, so he added a sentence at the end. It’s meaningless if the ruling, its logic and the impact of such a ruling are clear.

    People say things INDIRECTLY all the time. People can be duplicitous. People can be misleading. You want to show me where Arafat explicitly tells somebody to go blow up in front of Israeli children? You can’t, but we all know that he is one of the key architects of the terror campaign and that he should be hung.

  25. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 4:59 pm

    Velvel, you mean Judenrein?

    I agree with you, they should not be forced out. Those who wish to remain, should be allowed to stay. It’s just that in my view, they may not cause risk of harm to a single Israeli soldier or civilian.

  26. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 5:03 pm

    I don’t care what political or religious orientation floats your boat, but if you express anything less than abhorrence and disapproval of the notion of assassinating a Prime Minister, or attacking members of the IDF, then you’re probably floating in Neturei Karta land….

    Precisely!

  27. E

    9/27/2004 at 6:04 pm

    Ok, T M. The word “conspiracy” is not something you can just whip out to dismiss facts.

    Fact: Avishai Raviv worked for the GSS (Shabak), ostensibly with the full knowledge of then-PM Rabin. This is documented in every Israeli media source. Every one.

    Fact: Raviv is in media photos holding the “famous” signs with Rabin dressed like Hitler and Arafat which “appeared” at the “infamous” anti-Oslo rallies preceding Rabin’s murder.

    Fact: Raviv, together with a producer from Channel 10, staged Kach Swearing-in ceremonies and other such “right-wing crazy’s” scene’s – the producer (I believe his name was something oren) was later brought to trial because he staged the ceremony footage.

    Fact: Raviv was seen goading Amir that if he was a “real man” he would take action to remove the PM instead of being all talk.

    Fact: Raviv has a prominent essay in everyone’s favorite book “Baruch HaGever” – a tribute to Baruch Goldstein.

    Fact: At this juncture I would like to remind you once again that the Raviv phenomenon is public documented knowledge was a Shabak screw-up, but that his existence, doings and mission is documented 100%.

    Ok. So Yigal Amir, the Law Student from Herzelia, just happened to spend numerous Shabbat’s with Avishai Raviv – who was working with the Shabak to discredit the right wing – but it was the rabbis and their wild fatwas that pushed him over the edge – not the government trained agent-provocateur who not only managed to garner more media attention with his antics than any other activist in Israel’s history, but was always released shortly after he was “arrested” and was later DOCUMENTED BY THE SHAMGAR COMMISSION, the official commission of inquiry into the whole affair, as having called the press immediately after the shooting saying “we missed him but we will get him next time.”

    That last part opens up the can of worms that gets more complicated.

    What I want you to acknowledge is that there are many forces at work here. On the one hand there are the tried and true methods which are used to discredit the religious and Land-of-Israel faithful – documented in a manner that is indesputable. Just type Avishai Raviv into Google and have yourself an honest reading session. For a “TheMiddle” type take on the matter which is fair and comprehensive read Yossi Klein HaLevi on the matter:

    geocities.com/...

    The point is: Rabbis’ job is not to de-emphasize sources that could be misunderstood by “deranged” individuals. Their job is to present Torah to those who seek it.

    Another thing: Do you think anyone with a slight knowledge of recent history would actually believe that killing Sharon would not accelerate the retreat process in a similar manner which Rabin’s murder did?

    One last thing: I use a fake name and email address because I am deeply involved with Israeli journalism. These are things we cannot speak about openly because we would lose our jobs. Our editors all have extensive relationships with the higher echelons of the government and you bark up this tree it costs you your job.

    The combination of state-run media and an agency as powerful as the Shabak (with a special ‘Jewish section’ targetting the ‘extreme-right’) ought to be on your mind every time you read about a pulsa denura or other such hogwash.

    (oh, and one more thing – I promise this will be the last. The pulsa deNura fellow – do you know when he made his statement? When contacted by Maariv and asked: “If you were asked to perform a pulsa deNura ceremony on Sharon – would you?” (paraphrased) – to which he answered: “I suppose so.” At that point the headlines started blaring and the train had left the station. These guys sit at their phones and call rabbis all day, they attend classes at yeshivot and raise their hands and ask question to attempt to provoke headline grabbing comments. It is insanity.)

    Get a little deeper my friend – there is an entire world out there behind the headlines – the blogosphere may be the place to finally bring the public behind the paper curtain.

  28. ck

    9/27/2004 at 6:13 pm

    This is not the first I heard of stuff like this – ie the notion that the Rabin assasination was staged in order to garner support for Rabin and the peace process – but then went wrong when Rabin died. Apparently, Rabin’s body guard may have been the actual shooter and a shoret while afterwards, he committed suicide.

    I dunno. Seems a little whacky to me, but I’ll always listen…

  29. E

    9/27/2004 at 6:33 pm

    freeman.org/m_...

    very very disturbing: vi.cityline.ru...

    (for an explanation of that document: click here )

  30. velvel

    9/27/2004 at 7:33 pm

    TM,
    You’ve proved my point that you only hear/read what you want. You’ve seen the whole quote, and you still choose out the part you like to get excited about, and COMPLETELY DISREGARD his point.

  31. velvel

    9/27/2004 at 8:55 pm

    I just realized you’re using the loaded word, “fatwa,” just as I would use the loaded word, “Judenrein.” Except of course, that no Rabbi went out and said Sharon should be killed.

  32. T_M

    9/27/2004 at 9:03 pm

    Velvel: which point is that? The ethnic cleansing point? The non-middle point? The point about Arafat never directly ordering a terrorist action? Oops, that was my point about how sometimes you just say enough so that hamevin yavin.

    As for Judenrein = fatwa…only if you’re trying to discredit me… 😉

    E: I read that article and intend to read more because it was interesting. However, it convinced me of little. If the idea is to ascribe blame for what happened to Rabin on the Left and some unbelievably complex government conspiracy, I could probably point you to a couple of white supremacist sites that play similar convoluted games in order to present an angle that blames the Jews for 9/11, the Iraq War, the porn industry and the current global economy.

    The problem is that even the article you linked was very inconclusive about what happened and why. It was inconclusive for many reasons, but primarily because there’s a lot of conjecture and many accusations made that are denied by other sources (ie, whether Raviv created the Rabin in a Nazi outfit poster or whether, as the Shamgar Commission claims, it was two teenage Orthdox boys).

    Typically, the simpler solution tends to be the one to which I subscribe and in this instance, it is no different. Raviv was an agent who acted outside his purview. Period. Did the Shin Bet try to cover up its fuckup with him? Possibly.

    But I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, so I googled part of that Geocities article (parts of which are contradicted by another of your linked articles) and discovered that Google has only spidered 3 sites where there is any mention of this article: Jewschool where you guys clearly had a similar debate recently; another site that mentioned a reference to Halevy writing on Raviv; and the Geocities site you provided.

    So I looked at the Geocities site a little more closely, “Israel Media Watch,” and discovered that it is run by Yisrael Medad, an American living in a settlement. He is a good writer, and an intelligent person, but everything I found from him seemed to attack the press for its Left wing bias and for ignoring “obvious” stories like this Raviv story. He also seems to dislike the Israeli Left and in an unpublished letter to the New York Times, he blames the Israeli Left for becoming totally irrational with respect to Arab-Israeli conflict. Needless to say, he finds no such problem on the Right.

    So if I follow this line of thinking, the Israeli Far Right was non-existent before Rabin’s assassination. It was just Raviv pulling media stunts or trying to impress impressionable Rightists with 140 IQ (read: Yigal Amir).

    So why are we hearing so much about the Gaza pullout now?

    So who is treating the Baruch Goldstein tomb like a holy place?

    And who is getting these rabbis to talk about ancient death curses and laws that pertain to giving up “Israeli” land? Are these rabbis Shin Bet agents?

    And who was Meir Kahane? Did his followers get swallowed up by the Earth?

    And who is Moshe Levinger? Another plant?

    And why are the Yesha leaders talking about pending violence being the fault of Sharon? What pending violence? Has Raviv been telling them something?

    The Hilltop Youth didn’t fight soldiers who tried to remove outposts?

    The list goes on but I’m tired of this disingenuous debate. Guys: if you disagree with the Gaza pullout, speak up. However, if you speak up or support people who speak up by threatening (and possibly planning) violence against ANY person to prevent the pullout, you are beyond the pale.

    The warning signs are all in place. Tzachi Hanegbi, no lover of the Left, has publicly stated that there are at least 150-200 individuals who are ready to raise arms against others to prevent this pullout. We keep hearing about rabbis who are expressing opinions that justify violence against others over the issue of land. We keep hearing rumors about groups who want to destroy the Haram Al Sharif and how there’s a proliferation of photoshopped images of the “new” temple in its place. Moreover, a couple of prominent Hesder rabbis have provided rulings that might cause their soldiers to shirk their duties, if not worse.

    And the list goes on and on.

    This isn’t such a big mystery. There are lots of people for whom these issues are life and death issues or god and defilers-of-god issues. These are people who should concern us, as should their leaders and rabbis who are fomenting the potential fury at other Israelis. Anybody – on the Right or the Left – who sees these people or hears them, needs to speak up against them. Loud and soon. Otherwise, something terrible will happen again.

  33. E

    9/27/2004 at 9:16 pm

    In a nation that has turned from naivete toward a new “pragamatism” – in which they now know there needs to be separation – but figure it is easier to transfer Jews than Arabs – I think it is a positive development that there is talk of civil war, violent confrontation, footage of scuffling hilltop youth on the TV, etc.

    I think the pragmatic nation needs to realize there is nothing pragmatic about a retreat from the Land of Israel. The same pragmatists kept the Jews off the Temple Mount for three years due to “threats of violence” – threats of violence and facts on the ground are the name of the game in the Holy Land and the whole shrill “incitement, incitement – time out!” thing is so selectively applied and transparant that is impresses nobody.

  34. ck

    9/27/2004 at 10:06 pm

    E – you make a valid point. As much as it offends me, I can’t really say that you are entirely wrong. Every action has a reaction and if we are willing to mollycoddle Palestinians in order to reduce the threat of violence, then we are sending a message to all dissenters – go ahead, f*ck around – threaten violence and you too will be mollycoddled. Why should there be one standard applied to Palestinians, and another applied to Jews? Why should Israeli citizens and Jews be expected to behave better than those who would send 18 year old girls to blow themselves up along with whatever women, children and civilians they can include within the blast radius. Why indeed?

    My Mom is the most vociferously right wing person you will ever meet. Kahane’s got nothing on her. In matters relating to Arabs she lacks a certain measure of finesse, having been brought up in Morocco where the distinction between Jew and Arab was very well deliniated. She’s not a racist or anything, she’s just not very PC. But her answer to the series of questions I asked above (in case the answer wasn’t already obvious) would be very clear and instructive. It’s what she would always tell me when I misbehaved.

    “Al titnaheg kemoh Aravi!” – Don’t act like an Arab.

    Now before I get crucified, let me add that my Mom actually gets along very well with a number of her Arab friends. When she uses the term “Arab” in that context she talks about those Arabs that used to chase her and hit her and call her names in Morocco, and those Arabs that perpetrated terrorist acts against Israeli citizens and Jews around the world, and those Arabs that lobbed artillery shells and katyushas at her home etc. etc.

    I’d like to think that we can be better than that, otherwise, what’s the point? I’ll take pragmatism over that any day.

  35. Rabbi Yonah

    9/28/2004 at 12:53 am

    We all pray, but who does G-d listen to? Is G-d like a voting machine that tabulates yes’s and no’s? Does G-d act according to the democratic principles? Does G-d only listen to machers? Or to common folks too? You cannot pray that G-d keeps us in Gaza or takes us out of Gaza. You pray each and every moment of your life that G-d deals kindly with our people, remembers us, protects us (often from ourselves), and will bring about a peaceful conclusion to our suffering.
    May G-d who grants peace, give us a little bit of it this year. Please.

  36. E

    9/28/2004 at 8:40 am

    I am not suggesting that the Jews threatened with expusion act like Arabs – I am suggesting they act like liberate Jews in their homeland. The days of Jews morosely wandering from place to place due to the whims of governments are OVER. If this were happening anywhere else in the world the outrage would be UNBELIEVABLE.

    The only possible goos that can come from a Judenrein Gaza would be that the whole world would now be open to once again expelling Jews from the Diasporah – I’ll meet you at the airport.

  37. Velvel

    9/28/2004 at 9:21 am

    “You’re in New York? I’m in Chicago. We’ll be neighbors!”

  38. ck

    9/28/2004 at 2:12 pm

    Come on E, don’t be all melodramatic. It’s one thing to leave your home because you are being chased by a pack of savage cossacks, it’s quite another thing to leave for pragmatic reasons like a big $$ payoff, and the wishes of YOUR duly elected government. Believe me it breaks my heart, but better that than Jew on Jew violence.

  39. Velvel

    9/28/2004 at 4:05 pm

    It’s still not legal at this point. Most of the elected officials don’t care for it, and nothing ever went up for a vote.

  40. T_M

    9/28/2004 at 6:41 pm

    The Cabinet voted for a pullout. It’s legal.

    Besides, there are numerous petitions before the Supreme Court. If the pullout is illegal, it will be stopped.

  41. E

    9/28/2004 at 8:34 pm

    Anything can be made “legal”. Anything. We have a higher law. The same folks who fell for Oslo and thought they learned its lesson are falling for the “disengagement.”

    My post-Oslo told-ya-so’s were no as enjoyable as I thought they would be – some sickos look back at the hundreds of dead, saying “well – we had to give it a try,” actually saying they would support the same thing again even knowing the outcome.

    I simply cannot live with that insanity. There will be a trial one day, and there will be honest history books one day – and everyone who is supporting the expulsion of Jews from a patch of this earth will have to look their kids and grandkids in the eyes and explain to them why they supported such lunacy.

    “Everyone thought it was the best thing – the generals told us it was strategically good for security purposes…” – STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES AND GET OUT IN THE STREET BEFORE THE REALLY BIG TERROR ATTACKS START. Wake up and give up the sassy-pants unbecoming apologetics for a plan that is being pushed through even more crookedly than Oslo itself.

    At very least, lovers of freedom and democracy should be demanding a national referendum as every public affirmation of this issue up to now has been rejected 60:40.

    This new guy brings the moldy complacance of exile thinking to a blog which had the sweet smell of liberate Jewish thinking – of a group of diverse individuals engaging the Jewish Project. CK, do not be fooled by the amount of comments TM has spurred – it is because fans of this blog want to nip this development in the bud. If Jewlicious is just another Jewschool, with a little more hasbara but the same canned thought-stopping mechanisms (“that sounds like a conspiracy theory”, “you can’t compare this to history”, “fatwa, bla bla bla”, “the will of the democractically elected government”, “anything is better than Jew on Jew”) Come on – let’s actually open our minds and discuss what the larger scale Jewish project is all about. Is Israel simply an insurance policy for the diasporah, with our goal being to finally reach the point where we have “security”? Then what? What if we reach that point and realize we miss all our holy sites and historical artifacts because they are located on the other side of a towering concrete fence which has become the largest terrorist training camp in the world?

    bla bla bla, political arguments are not even the point. The nation of Israel is eternal, the Jewish project rolls forward – this blog can either be on the vanguard of lighting that great light or it can bask in the cheap neon lights of the buzz words cooked up for you by the pagan media.

    chag sameach

  42. T_M

    9/28/2004 at 9:12 pm

    E: What do you propose to do with the Palestinians?

  43. T_M

    10/3/2004 at 1:30 pm

    I don’t understand, did E leave because of this discussion?

  44. E

    10/3/2004 at 5:47 pm

    I left because rather than answering any of the points I have raised you have widened the scope, directing it in another direction entirely. You address my points and I will gladly allow you to redirect the topic of coversation.

  45. E

    10/3/2004 at 5:48 pm

    I left because rather than answering any of the points I have raised you have widened the scope, directing it in another direction entirely. You address my points and I will gladly allow you to redirect the topic of coversation.

  46. E

    10/3/2004 at 5:49 pm

    I left because rather than answering any of the points I have raised you have widened the scope, directing it in another direction entirely. You address my points and I will gladly allow you to redirect the topic of coversation.

  47. E

    10/3/2004 at 5:51 pm

    oops, i guess in my absence I forgot how to just click “say it” once.

  48. T_M

    10/3/2004 at 6:43 pm

    Wait a minute.

    I took the time to read the articles you posted, as well as others on that Geocities website. I took the time to read your posts and I addressed them.

    I don’t buy the self-serving far-Rightist concept that Yigal Amir was the product of some complex Leftist scheme supported by the Shin Bet or other Israeli security organization.

    That guy whose site you quoted, Yisrael Medad, seems to be an intelligent person, but he also seems eerily focused on the evils of the Israeli Left, and I did not find the general atmosphere and overall claims on his site to be compelling.

    However, I did read them and I addressed them directly in a couple of posts including #32.

    I think it’s absurd to call a paper like the J Post left-wing. I think it’s absurd to claim that security services had an interest in fomenting a PM’s assassination.

    I think it’s ridiculous to deny what any person who has ever visited any Jewish community (or settlement, choose your preferred term) in the disputed territories knows readily: there is a ton of animosity toward the “yefey nefesh” on the Left and the term is used disparagingly; there is a lot of visceral anger, and unfortunately, serious and shameful accusations that the current war is the fault of the Left and Israel’s attempt to find a resolution with the Palestinians; that some prominent and not so prominent Jews living there call Peres, Barak and Rabin criminals for pursuing Oslo; that some rabbis have taken a leading and vocal role in attacking the legitimacy of the Israeli government and leadership because of their perception that they should be supporting the Jews who live in the territories differently; that some of these attacks by leaders and rabbis have gone to the point of promoting acts against the IDF such as we saw with the “hilltop youth”; that there are goups actively and publicly discussing the destruction of the Haram al Sharif; that there is at least one Jewish group that has been accused of placing bombs in Arab schools (which would qualify them as terrorists); and finally, that many of the people who live in the territories approach their politics from the point of view of faith and adhering to faith when it asserts that all of the Land is Holy logically leads to a desire (and perhaps action) to destroy the thing that stands in the way of fulfilling the perceived commandments of that faith – the Israeli PM or government.

    I don’t need newspaper articles to teach me any of the above. I’ve spoken to people who live there and to friends who go to visit friends who live there. Let’s admit that many “settlers” feel surrounded by hostile forces and all you need is a small number who wish to respond by using force in order to create a problem.

    It is this mentality of being under siege, of wanting to punish those whom one believes have caused the failures of the present situation, and to take active steps to stem any further actions that creates Yigal Amir. However, it is a permissive and hostile environment and consensus that gives him the courage to act. Every time a rabbi speaks in a “shiur” or any other setting about how Din Rodef applies, they are shoring up that consensus. Even if the whole conspiracy theory about Raviv was correct, it still does not address the reality of the environment and setting that existed. It’s not as if those demonstrations we saw in 1995 and recently are caused by a single individual. They are not.

    It takes a village.

    Now I’d like you to return to your post #41 and look at how you attempt to delegitimize what I have said in this discussion and my original (unoriginal, according to you) blog entry. According to you, I reek of the moldiness of exile thinking. According to you, I don’t understand the “larger scale Jewish project” and therefore undermine the goal of having an Israel with its holy sites and historical artifacts intact. Then you conclude that I am essentially the messenger of the “pagan media.”

    Talk about a frontal attack attempting to take the higher, holier ground while delegitimizing my Zionism, my ideas and also my Judaism. All of this because I pointed out, correctly, that rabbis have publicly supported the concept of killing a Jewish PM of Israel.

  49. anon

    11/8/2004 at 8:09 am

    You’re always right, aren’t you?

  50. T_M

    11/9/2004 at 12:25 am

    Uh….no.

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